My understanding of US export permits is 300 dollar fee per application not item, meaning you could have multiple items on one permit. Buy a couple of lasers at once and you save on the export fee. Something to consider for the gear whore with more money than brains. I could be wrong so someone should check before buying.

The one thing I am certain of is that paperwork will specifically state that those lasers are yours... Forever. So no group buys. Don't want the State Department laying an egg.

Whoops. You may have mistaken Skeletor's post. He was referring to laser safe lenses for goggles being hard to find and on the ITAR list.

foot in mouth

I think the real problem with laser lenses is that they're tinted. That means at night you'll see less.

The glasses also need to match the frequency of the laser. Easy to do in the military when it's all issued. Tougher at a game when folks are showing up with whatever.

And remember. You can't see the IR laser unless you have NVGs. So comparing that danger to a vehicle on the field only counts if you have some sort of invisible truck.

The easiest fix is all or none. If all the players have NVG goggles then consider lasers. If not it's not an option.

I'll be sure to inform OPP that they can cut down on vehicle collisions and pedestrian hits if they ban those pesky invisible trucks from the roads.

I"m sure I'll hear about that enforcement blitz on the news. If they catch him I bet the driver's name is Deiter.

So what basically people are saying from what I've heard from the beginning is that the solution would be to have an equivalent of a chrony for lasers...

Until we see that day, lasers are still banned at my events.

Sort of but not really.

Look at it this way, at many of the big games when you chrony your gun they will wright down the fps on your wrist band and on the sign in sheet.

Real class 1 lasers will come with FDA paperwork. Basically it's a sheet that says that they already did the test for you. So it's like having your lasers fps on your wrist band

See a laser on the feild, ask to see there papers. No papers no laser.

If you drive without a driver's licence you get a ticket, simple as that. Lasers are basically the same way. Only ppl who won't have this are the guys with clone lasers.

I'd have to see that paper for myself and if it can be faked.

They even fake the laser warning label these days.

lol

In the end it is up to the host, which I think is the best policy.

You can fake paperwork, you can fake stickers. But real lasers are very very very easy to tell apart from clones. The 2.5mm audio jack is also a dead giveaway.

The easiest way to check is to get an Insight/LDI compatible pressure switch.

Tell the player to unplug his switch, plug in yours to check. Done.

I don't know how this thread brought about so much laser fear mongering, it's stupid simple.

Class 1 only, no other lasers. No chrony, no IR safety glasses, no danger. It's as black and white as it gets!

The intended use of my laser was never airsoft, hence the reason you don't see it on the field....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deltastone (Post 1758904) My understanding of US export permits is 300 dollar fee per application not item, meaning you could have multiple items on one permit. Buy a couple of lasers at once and you save on the export fee. Something to consider for the gear whore with more money than brains. I could be wrong so someone should check before buying. The one thing I am certain of is that paperwork will specifically state that those lasers are yours... Forever. So no group buys. Don't want the State Department laying an egg.

In regard to the parts I've put in bold: Or, you know, not just for those with more money than sense, which practically all you NV and Laser owners are, there's also likely a set of people who would rather not qualify as smugglers of arms related materials...

Though I do agree, if you are looking for multiple items for yourself, yes, it's a good idea to look into and while I'm not sure, I believe you may be correct.

The second part could prove very useful in the event you suffer any issues with your device, as unlike the majority of owners currently traipsing around ASC, you would be, provably, the legal owner of the device and entitled to claim warranty and repair. I also agree that pissing off the State Department is not a good idea.

Oh I didn't mean it as a tongue in cheek way to suggest circumventing ITAR. I just meant it as the typical response to how the community views Night Vision in general, ie we are all rich but stupid. Personally I think it's a bit much for someone to walk away with five 1000+ dollar lasers, probably using his shirt like a basket because he can't carry them himself.


Yes, but apparently not fool proof. I have a fake PEQ from long before I started using real ones that uses a real pressure switch. I actually use that fauxPEQ's switch on my real laser as I quite like it.



Now I may see a few people somewhat directly avoiding the question that was posed earlier: the question of "Do you point the laser at someones face." There is alot of restating that something is eye safe, but without much real explanation of what that entails. The real answer here clearly won't be the most popular one, but I've never been the most well received in Airsoft anyways so if someone new hates me for saying this... Oh well.

To answer the question of "Is it fine to [aim at the face] in that case since your laser is eye-safe, or do you wait for another body part to be exposed just to be extra safe?" Basically, is it alright to aim these devices at someones face or even their eyes?

The answer is yes. You can point that laser at someones face and pull the trigger.

This seems counter intuitive for what we know about lasers. Your standard dollar store laser is "eye safe" as long as you don't have direct, prolonged direct exposure to the beam. Which would be true of any red laser: keep it away from the face. Class 1 lasers are a fair bit different however. Due to the insanely low output power of a Class 1 laser, in any condition we come up in playing Airsoft there is no way for this laser to cause any sort of retina damage. Ever. Period.

Class 1 Laser (Revised classification system)
A Class 1 laser is safe under all conditions of normal use. This means the maximum permissible exposure (MPE) cannot be exceeded when viewing a laser with the naked eye or with the aid of typical magnifying optics (e.g. telescope or microscope).

Class 1 Laser (Old classification system)
Inherently safe; no possibility of eye damage. This can be either because of a low output power (in which case eye damage is impossible even after hours of exposure), or due to an enclosure preventing user access to the laser beam during normal operation, such as in CD players or laser printers.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_safety#Class_1

It is safe to do so. It is safe to laze someone in the eyes for a prolonged period without risk of liquefying their retinas. It poses no danger. This is where the black and white element comes in; if it's eye safe it's eye safe. There is absolutely no logical reason why these devices should be barred from entry onto the field from a player perspective. Some hosts may not have the know how, or feel as though as there is too much of a hassle to regular the lasers - this is fine. This is that hosts game.

As an aside I'd just like to state standard practice usually has people NOT aiming at peoples faces on purpose. The idea is more or less for accidental exposure to the eyes. The point I'm making here is that yes, you can do it and yes, it is safe.

But someone might argue that a player can forge papers, or sneak lasers onto the field. As a host and an apparent member of the Night Vision bourgeoisie, it's a very nice thing that there are not many lasers out there that are Class 1. It's not hard to become familiar with all the existing models out there. Compared to what China is cloning and what is real, it's practically a non-issue determining real from fake almost immediately.

But what about the lasers that have overlap from fake to real? PEQ-15's? There are so little of them around that most people are on a first name basis with the owners. The China clones also feel quite a bit different physically and make have the altered remote switch port on the rear. A real LDI DBAL? Son, that is an uphill battle. Personally I haven't had the chance to hold a real DBAL yet. You need to prove to me, as a host, that thing is legitimate. If I have any doubt what so ever about the legitimacy of this unit, it's not hitting the field. (Luckily on that note I'll be able to get some grope time comparing a real DBAL and a fake one at Hornet.)

It's just that simple; if the host has reason to believe the laser may not be real or even the gut feeling that this guy just seems off... Don't let it on the field. It's not a difficult concept.

On the sneaking lasers bit, people will do it anyways. Luckily these people are fairly easy to spot from the player perspective cause their damn lasers are light sabers at night time. At games where there might only be one guy with night vision on the field using a laser on a number of people who will never see the beam... That is where the real problem starts. If he's the only one who can see it, no one else can call him out on it. Since he snuck a laser onto the field, he's already breaking the rules? What can be done about it? Not much.

It's funny that this thread has taken to the "ban everything" culture that is surrounding the current gun debates going on in the United States. The parallels are almost hilarious. The difference is that all it takes for a gun to become dangerous to someone else is to use it in a way that is against the law. The difference here is that you can't turn a Class 1 laser and make it dangerous with the exception of certain PEQ boxes. It doesn't become a circumstantial thing where they are only safe for use in Airsoft under set conditions, using it beyond those conditions makes it dangerous. No, if it is a class 1 laser it is safe. Period. Black and white.

But if we suggest banning all lasers, its in an effort to minimize the amount of dangerous lasers hitting the field... Basically to try and stop the rule breakers from breaking the rules. The real risk was never at a big game, where it has more regulation and more players looking out for each other... The real risk was always at that small, 25 person night game where only the offending players have NODs. Banning lasers from all games - big and small - does absolutely nothing to address that issue. Those guys will keep breaking the rules when they can; putting people at risk.

The issue isn't "If there is 100 people, half with night vision, how do we prevent someone from using an unsafe laser." The issue is "how do we prevent someone from using an unsafe laser when there is only one person with night vision on the field." Frankly, I don't know if there is a solution to that issue.

Gato you sound a bit butt hurt that your commissionaire job isn't working out for you and making you rich while some people have money they can spend on their leisure activities.:rolleyes:

I have this odd feeling if the foot was on the other shoe you wouldn't be saying that.

Just like any sport some people have a bit more money to spend on it then others whether it be racing, golf, paintball or shooting. Some people are most defintly not responsible with their money and own 15k worth of gear and have no other assets like a house or car. To each their own but you sound like the kid who got gobots instead of transformers for christmas.

I'm not really in the know with lasers/etc...

Even though the Class 1 definitions that are posted here say that they must be safe/etc to use...does that "normal use" really encompass shining it at person's eyes? I get that there's light splash/reflections/etc...and that red colours make you blink faster than green, etc...but we're basically going to be pointing them at each other. I really appreciate the amount of research and education that some of the guys have put into this.

I think that each and every player on the field, and the owner, and the insurer, etc.. has to assume that if lasers/etc...are in play, that they'll be pointed in someone's eyes. Directly, indirectly, accidentally and on purpose.

We wear goggles because that's the one spot that can get permanently injured with airsoft. You can get broken teeth, skin punctures, etc...but those can be fixed/healed. You can shoot/unload/blast at good goggles essentially indefinitely at any range and they'll take it. We mandate that eyepro be able to take wicked shots and shrug them off.

Can the same be said for these things? If so, and you want to test them, why not just have the owner submit to being zapped with their own laser/gizmo straight in the eyeball? If they're not "safe" enough to do that...then their use should be disallowed.

Find it sad that laser are banned, I use them to help my sniper to spot the enemy when he's not findind our target (flash the laser on the lower body or even next tothe target, just o show where they are), I know they can be some risk so I use my brain when using them.

Just sad because of morons they are banned when they can be useful... Oh well gonna use them with my friends and gonna wait for a solution for those lasers

http://www.sciencebuddies.org/scienc...r_Safety.shtml

This is a good, simple read, not just for you: but in general.

There are two systems, old and new, and both classify Class 1 in the same light. That it cannot cause eye damage of any kind even after hours of prolonged direct exposure even under magnification. The new class system also distinguishes between Class 1 and Class 1M, where Class 1M is an eye safe laser UNLESS magnified.

LDI Class 1 laser's are safe for hours of direct exposure to the eye and are designed with force on force training in mind.

The Sun for example, has more potential for blindness from directly looking at it than any Class 1 Laser.

EDIT: To address some of the comments above, an attack on character of individuals who are informed on the tech they possess instead of the issue at hand (misuse of lasers, misinformation of laser output power, fear mongering), is exactly what the desperate do in an argument they can't win with documented scientific theory.

If you have a personal vendetta against NVG users, that's fine, but if your argument is constantly tuned to the pitch of "burn the witch" eventually the townsfolk will realize that you're the nutter and you might end up on the wrong end of the burning pier.

The bigger issue is with fake/china lasers that are not eye safe, and the players coming out of the woodwork that have not educated themselves enough to realize that. The IR variants of those lasers are even more problematic because you can't see them coming at you.

If, this season, hosts will start checking lasers as they do hot guns, then perhaps we're making progress... But until you can actually prove/test/enforce, it is still a contentious issue.

A good read in pants's link and it raises a point I haven't seen here. Shining a laser on a magnifying optic can make that "safe" laser unsafe.

As stipulated by the two different classes, Class 1 and Class 1M... All LDI Class 1 Lasers are Class 1 and not Class 1M... for example: Making that Class 1 safe laser just as safe if you beamed it into a telescope attached to your retina for 12 hours straight.

Hmm on second though I don't think I'm going to add more fuel to the fire... :)

Others covered what I said in a more elegant manner.

I don't think there's any debate about a proper laser being safe. They're used in the military for training and for those outside the military it all seems like shooting guns and jumping out of helicopters in reality you have never met a more risk adverse group of people other than maybe your mom.

I think the fair debate sits on the safe rated laser vs. the glut of fake PEQ boxes and scabbed on home made jobs.

We have age verified tags on here and in some cases you can't get invited to a game unless you have one. Why not a Laser rating? It sounds like there a people with test kit on here. Ship the box to a verifier, get it back with a non-transferable card a tag for your profile. Sure it will cost the users a bit but compared to the price of buy for the unit and the NODs it's probably about a set of batteries.

That would he a standard that would help the hosts and they would not have to worry about if someone was going to be injured at their event.

I've been toying with the idea of posting up an official breakdown of laser devices used in our community, this concept actually came about from some of the veteran hosts on this site, so that they could better understand the technology being used by players on the field.

In addition to this, it would be quite easy to maintain a list of known users of said devices, kinda like Shado's sniper clinic list. Completely voluntary.. but it would give hosts and other players a general lay of the land as to who is deploying what.

That list would help the new guys when they're ready to buy in too.

Gobots is boss and, I already have the toys I want/need, I have had since before last June, they simply don't come out to games as that's not what I wanted them for. I'd prefer to not remove the fun for the opposing team or players without NV or lasers.

you telling me transformers is cooler than this?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi.../GobotToys.jpg

As a game host, I have in mind the safety of players

with the proliferation of NVG and Laser tech in games it does raise concerns

the simplest solution is to drop a blanket ban on lasers, this eliminates the problem.

That said, as more and more games move into night time playing, and more people investing int he equipment to exploit that environment as a host you want to build a sandbox that can fit everyone's toys.

My simple solution is. if you intend to use a laser you must prove it's class 1 status, no proof no use.

As a Player, if I don't like what is happening at any particular game I don't go in the first place or I leave when the issue comes up.

The issues with respect to Game balance and the exploitation of technology in the games is of particular concern for me. I've done "low tech" games that excluded all tech, including radios and Flashlights.. I have also done games that were tech heavy.

It's up to the host to take into account the game balance and see to it that advantages of tech are offset with other elements. It's not easy, and is going to get harder as the Tech proliferates.

Right now in the southern Ontario region the issue is particularly acute as a great deal of high tech devices seem to be consolidated in the hands of certain tight groups.

Savvy game hosts have the means and ways to address these issues that can meet the needs of everyone.

Just measure peoples lasers the same way we chrono their guns.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/FREE-SHIPPING...ht_2116wt_1397

Unfortunately it's not a good solution. That device measures from 1mW and upwards in 1mW increments whereas the limit for IR lasers is 0.7mW so not really an ideal measurement device. Lasers start to become unsafe before it will even register a reading.

Also this system operates by sensing temperature so the accuracy of its output will be affected if you run it on a cold vs warm day.

Yes, but it will let you know if a laser is over the field limit.

If i'm not mistaken your argument is invalid. Unless you take the inverse logic. anything that measure over 1mW stays off field. however you end up having a band 0.71-0.99999 mw which is about 50% more powerful than the "eye safe" limit able to be on field.

Clarify
 

It's an interesting read. Seems like everyone is arguing in circles. What are the facts? If someone is running an IR lase (real or fake), how can I protect my eyes?


Also I think if a game host says no lasers than that should be honored.;)

Real Class 1 Lasers with FDA documentation cannot damage your eyes. These are the only lasers that should be allowed on airsoft fields. There is no reason for you to have to protect your eyes.

In my opinion, anyone running undocumented lasers or high power lasers is being criminally negligent.

I have posted a couple of write ups on this. So has a number of other people in this thread.

If you're actually really worried regardless of the fact that most lasers will be indeed safe out there, I brought up the existence of laser safe goggles previously in this thread. I can't point you in any direction, since they are pretty rare and probably ITAR controlled, but I have a pair of Oakley SI Ballistic Array goggles with three lenses. One of the three is a yellow lens, that I just recently realised was for laser protection.

You can find these goggles for around $150-200+, but I'm not sure where you can get them aside from eBay.

I heard that Oakley Juliets will also stop laser beams. D:

Source:
http://www.celebrity-sunglasses-find...cyclops_x3.gif

Class 3A and chinese repro lasers ain't got jack on Cyclops. I'm sold!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djeeuj6mK_w Revision is likely to come out with laser protective lenses sometime soon.

Revision has had laser safe lenses for a while. I have not seen many of them, but the CF has them floating around, and they have been on revisions website for a loooooong time.

So I caved and bought a Crimson Trace CMR-201 IR laser for my TM G17C and a NVEC VITAL-2 for my rifles (my wallet hates you people). Question is, while the VITAL-2 has no papers since it was used (but has a sticker on it indicating 0.7mW output), the Crimson Trace doesn't specify anywhere what the power output is. Since I bought it brand new from a retailer, I'm sure it has to be Class 1 or they wouldn't have been able to sell it to civilians.

But to be safe anyway, I confirmed with both TNVC and Crimson Trace themselves that the laser was at 0.07mW (yes, even less than 0.1mW) before I made the order. Is the email itself from Crimson Trace sufficient documentation?

Both lasers are very well documented and have the specifics posted everywhere. I don't think any host would have a problem with them Ken.
At the end of the day it will be up to the host, but those are some very nice laser purchases congratulations!

I'm quite curious where you bought bought those laser. If you want to PM the location where you can buy them i'll will be more than happy.

I know i'm not yet AV and where not allowed to give links to non-verified members, thats why i'm asking by PM, so it's not going to 18- comrades. It's ok if you dont want to give it because i'm not verified, i'm mature enoughht to understand the reason :P

That's not how it works. :|

You're not 18 in the eyes of the site until you're verified. Dem be de rules.

Correct I understand the meaning of the rules and I find it good, wont let immature kid get stuff that can kill the sport (idiot people with good tech can be dangerous).

I'll just wait I get my gun, after i'll go in an organised game get AV and chrony the gun (especcially when is a WE, dont want to hurt no one) :D

Okay so my buddy bought a Pro&T AN/PEQ-15 no IR laser does anyone know the classification of this laser I can not find the Pro&T website or the power out put anywhere

So just wondering if anyone knows about them

No info = no proof = no go sparkly at games.

The Pro&T Peq 15 is an airsoft replica so its guaranteed its a Chinese eye frying laser. Ehobbyasia sells them.

I got the VITAL on eBay and the other one from a source I can't disclose. Though, I want to ask you: why do you need an IR laser? I'd be pretty impressed that you got your NODs before getting a gun, lol.

Sry im not quite sure whats a NODs.

The laser it's not for now, but I was checking for one in the time I played paintball but never was sure if safe enough so I never got one. It's more for information for later when I got my gun (My hk416 pass first)

You do realize that without a nightvision scope (AKA a "NOD") you aren't able to see an infra red (IR) laser, right?

EDIT: One more thing, as you're from Quebec you should check on if there are games there which allow the use of lasers. I haven't looked recently but in the past the game posts I have checked tend to ban the use of lasers entirely. You may be buying something for your gun that you won't be able to use, NOD's or not.

That and the fact that these lasers will run you a least a couple hundred dollars each, in addition to the scope itself (being a few thousand depending on the model). I think you're interested in just a regular laser, which you'll probably have to start a different thread on to see which models will be permissible. :p

You can change channels on you TV from 4 miles out.

If you're good.

Or hack something like this perhaps, just replace the IR LED (D1) with a relay switch and attach that to the pressure switch input of whatever laser you have:

http://www.aaroncake.net/circuits/ir...er_circuit.asp

I can only imagine the collective rage as people's TV's start turning on and off repeatedly thanks to some jackass across town :D

I know that we need an NV to see the laser and it's in my project to buy one (maybe not this year thought). The laser too wont be this year, was more for the info for the future.

I'm gonna check in Quebec if they accept them with some paperwork. If no, maybe i'll just wait a bit and see the developpement of these lasers on field. It's no priority, but would be happy to have on in a couple of year.

There's a blanket ban on lasers by most organizers in Quebec. I doubt you'll find much support.

z0ng, we must do this. Lets use my paq4

Then sadly I'll abandon the project if it's that hated here :/... Oh well gonna save me money for my gun !!

.. or you can move to Ontario, the land of the night games. http://www.airsoftcanada.com/images/...01_icon_ok.gif

For the people that were interested in protecting their eyes from lasers ESS just introduced their new Laser Protective Lenses. Unfortunately they are subject to ITAR.

http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-c...218-174054.jpg

*Edit: post updated with article*

Full article from ADS Inc:
Due to the proliferation of lasers on today’s battlefield and in training at home, laser injuries are becoming more and more prevalent. As a result, each branch of service has outlined their own Laser Safety Program and each program calls for a certain degree of laser protective lens (LPL).

The ESS LPL protects the user from a broad spectrum of laser threats that are commonly found in combat and training environments. This laser protection is in addition to the current ballistic capability found in all ESS products. LPLs are created by impregnating dyes into ESS’ high-grade polycarbonate during the injection molding process. Each dye absorbs a specific light frequency, producing a colored lens capable of blocking the concentrated light emitted from laser devices at the specified nanometer wavelength(s) and optical density (OD).

http://www.adsinc.com/blog/products/...ve-lenses-lpl/

Too bad its not available for civilians.

LDI themselves charge $250 USD for the US export permit. So why would Rampart be charging more since they are charge more for the laser itself as well. Not real keen on someone charging more then the export fee really is.

The point is mute since I talked to LDI and they won't sell to individuals in Canada now that they have a distributor here.

So what happens is you fill out the paperwork send it to Rampart. They check it and then send the paperwork to LDI. LDI is the one who actually submits the paperwork to the US Government.

Rampart International is no longer listing the IR lasers for import. The note now on the DBAL-I2 they have listed is for the visible laser only version. It says "this civilian legal model contains green and red visible lasers ONLY". Do you know if there is a new law or something preventing civilians from owning or buying legally IR lasers? Does the visible laser version have an eye safe mode? The airsoft community banning visible lasers might have to be changed if there is eye safe visible versions. Banning all visible lasers and only allowing eye safe IR lasers is kind of advocating illegal import of lasers that cannot be legally purchased from a store here in Canada. There has to be legally obtainable versions that can be used in airsoft that will be allowed at games.

In Canada you can use Class III3B lasers, the Class I rules for civilian is an American one. I will not play in a game where class IIIB IR laser is used. You'll lose your eyesight

Rampart used to sell eye safe IR Class I, now they say civilian visible version only. Most games in Ontario are saying now "No visible laser". So if the one store in Canada that was selling eye safe Class I no longer says they can sell them to civilians. That leaves no legal option to obtain an eye safe Class I in Canada. Thereby directing people to buy illegally obtained Class I lasers as they are the only ones currently allowed. So there is going to have to be a legally obtainable version that is eye safe visible that the airsoft community is going to allow. Some version that is legally obtainable here in Canada rather than promoting illegal import of ITAR controlled Class I. Almost the same with NVG's, no one in Canada sells Gen3 to civilians but at least you can find stores that sell Gen1 or 2. The lasers there is no one selling any version of eye safe now that Rampart has stopped. There needs to be a legal option otherwise it supports illegal imported versions only.

Saying that we 'Support' Illegal import of anything is going a bit far. ASC has no bearing on members personal choices. The field owners and game organizers have their sets of rules, if these rules allow for only eye safe lasers to be used, then those are the rules. Are they forcing players to buy lasers? Not at all. Just because the only way to get lasers that follow the rules is to import them does not mean we support that. Its simply us allowing those who have the lasers to use them.

Agreed. It also wasn't that long ago that many airsoft guns were being brought in via legal "grey areas". Most guys with GEN3 Night Vision at least have done the same bringing it in, those are the same guys generally using IR lasers. Fact is, it's not illegal to own here in Canada, and it's not impossible to import those items legally either. The items being used are also not stolen hardware from the military which would be completely illegal. The United States is pretty hardassed when it comes to exporting this stuff, but that's south of the border. IR lasers themselves are not illegal to import (look at all the G&P ones floating around brought in from China).

Eye safe lasers are a safety issue, only lasers classed 1 or 1M (to my knowledge) are truly eye safe. As far as I know, visible class 1M laser designators for mounting to a rifle do not exist. I'm sure if you could get one and present the paperwork showing it is a true eye safe visible laser, then hosts would maybe look into making an exception.

Well it is a thin line to walk as isn't directly supporting or by any other means.

I would rather say "support" or promote the use of retailers who already import or will import eye safe lasers. My miss understanding was thinking they had eye safe visible versions still not importable. I guess there is no eye safe visible versions. That would by default mean just IR Class 1 lasers.

As given to me
http://www.scoutbasecamp.ca/category/infrared-lasers

Could be a source of legally imported Class 1 lasers if Rampart may is longer be selling/importing them. Website might not be ready for import I guess as well, have to check with them first.

The main problem that arises is that these people want to be "seall33treconrangers" with task force Daisy Chain.

The individuals in this community have, in the past, and frequently since then, displayed a blatant disregard and lack of concern in regard to American export restrictions and legalities. It has nothing to do with not being "allowed" to have things, it has to do with not wanting to pay taxes or take the time to do paperwork.

The flip side of the coin is that if these Canadian companies got their shit in order and had us sign a small piece for paper, they could sell us anything they fucking want, as I could legally export from the U.S., and import into Canada, almost any piece of ITAR equipment that is allowed to be owned by a Civilian in the U.S., so long as it is not a prohibited device in Canada.

Anyone who wants to argue, don't bother, I've dealt directly with ITAR both during work and for my own possession on numerous occasions. I've signed the end user agreements and filed the paperwork.

According to Armasight website Drakos are not ITAR restricted hence its easily exportable. LDI's D-BAL AFAIK requires export permit.

On the flip side Drakos uses wireless activation tab and adjustment are made to the mount which are not loved in some circles.

So the problem with the lasers really is the IR level output. Visible lasers could have a dangerously high output of IR even though the unit says it is low power. From what I have read the IR filter or lack of is the problem. Is it even possible to put and IR filter on visible laser to make them safe?

Visible lasers for canada cannot exceed 5 mW. In order for a civilian to own and operate an IR laser legally, it must be designated as a class 1 IR laser.

This is governed by the FDA, and Health Canada.

As a Canadian, it is VERY easy to file the paperwork to purchase a obtain a civilian level ITAR item from the USA. The fee is $250.00 USD per request, this is an administration fee with the US State Department. Places like rampart charge $300.00. (The extra $50.00 is their fee for doing the paperwork for you)

However this is something you can just go and do yourselves, you will be subject to an international background check, most likely Interpol which will look for criminal charges, as well your name is most likely run through the US databases for hits. Obviously only DHS Agents and members within that department will know the details of the background checks.

Step 1:
Figure out what product you want to buy that is restricted under ITAR: LDI, ITT, Ops-Core, L3, Wilcox, Norotos, etc etc.

Step 2:
See if the company handles direct international sales, and see if they will assit you in acquiring an export permit for said item. Ops-Core is now set up for international sales of it's Ballistic Helmet with an export permit, although the waiting list is extremely long.

Step 3:
Get your permit for the item you want to purchase.
http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/licensing/forms.html

For Temporary export, you would fill out and submit a DSP-61 (Unclassified Defense Articles) Otherwise you would fill out and submit a DSP-5 (Unclassified Defense Articles).

After 6-8 weeks, pending your background check you will have a permit to export that particular item. Your name will be registered with the Department of State, and if you transfer the item to anyone you will be obligated to fill out a DSP-6 form to transfer the item from person to person. (Start the process over again)

There, now everyone knows - good hunting!

Thor Global Defense Group might be able help as well with export of ITAR items.

http://www.thorgdg.com/export/

Or

http://www.knesekguns.com/commercial/