Fight club custom
 

For those who have no idea who are FIGHT CLUB CUSTOM http://www.ptwcustom.com/, they are a small enthusiast and player based company that provide Systema PTW user with after market products such as motors, electronics control boards, barrels etc. To this date their products have won scores of fans around the world that have been frustrated by Systema lack of product inprovement in particular their motors. Although they have received some negative exposure, their products and Youtube videos have proven otherwise. I personally was quite skeptical about their mechbox, ECU and motors as I have a few that was already tuned by Tac and DTT but after a catastrophic failure on my PTWCQB-R I purchased a replacement from Systema I was not impressed not only did the upgrades sucked, the motor wound up burning itself out after a few mags, in frustration I purchased a 2.5 motor package direct from FCC, I was impressed the performance even outperforms my Tac/DTT tuned PTWM4 and especially my 2012 non evolution model. After getting rid of ALL my Systema PTW (from a 07/08 to 2012 non evolution M16 and M4) I plunged right in to their custom build rifle. It took quite a while to decide what kind of build, the back and forth communication with Lung at FCC was worth the wait, after that the comms with my PTW dealer Chris at DTT was even smoother. I decide to settle on their “rogue hunter” model with a few upgrades such as their Noveske NST rails and some Magpul goodness. I highly recommend Double Tap Tactical and FCC full custom rifle for those who wants no hassle, no issue performance out of your PTW they are worth every dollar!

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This will be a point form review of my FCC PTW Custom Noveske 13"rifle ordered through Double Tap Tactical from Fight Club Custom from HK, this is rifle 1 out of 3 that was ordered and a second shorter upper was also ordered for this rifle arriving end of August. I will update this review every month.

Specs:

VELOCITY MUR CNC Upper Receiver
FCC CNC Lower Receiver (Noveske FFL)
FCC Selector Switch Board
FCC Mini Mosfet (Switch Device)
AK advanced CPU (3 burst/auto)
FCC CNC completed Gear Box SPEED
FCC Trigger,hammer,full auto sear pin& selector cap decoration set
Rampo's Complete PMAG-black
TROY ambi-Charging Handle
FCC Assist Knob Set
FCC NBUS2 SIGHT-BLACK
FCC NST TROY TRX 13" (Instead of TROY 13 “ rail)
FCC NOVESKE low profile Gas Block
FCC ASAP End Plate
FCC Troy Medival Flash Hider
FCC UBR Buff Stock
FCC MIAD GRIP (Black)
FCC completed tightbore inner barrel system 14.5”
FCC Blackout 300 Multi Barrel 14.5" (black)
FCC ShootingTeam Dust Cover set
FCC G2 2.5 motor (For Systema PTW use only)
CNC QD Pivot Pin Set (YH style) *for both PTW & GBB*
AK enhance Bolt Stop set (Wilson Combat)
FCC Troy Trigger Guard
FCC Troy Ambi-mag catch
AK BAD ASS Selector set
VELOCITY M135 Cylinder - 400fps w.20
VELOCITY M115 Cylinder - 374fps w.20
VELOCITY M90 Cylinder - 347fps w.20

First off the price I payed for the FCC is not much more than a BNIB 2012 Systema PTW with all bells and whistles in fact if I were to do the same it would have cost me an extra grand

Positive points
- Full moisture proof
- quality build, construction/assembly, QC and packaging, top notch CNC work on every part that goes into the mechbox
- high quality custom in house built parts
- Factory tested and distributor tested for any performance issue before arriving to my hands
- light weight compared to a Prime body PTW of the same length
- faster, quieter and cooler operating temp performance from the 2.5motor compared to the 2012 Systema motor
- Tri burst and full auto function
- Mini ECU allowing you to use 15C LiPo without damaging the ECU
- Full no hassle customer info assistance through website, facebook, forums and emails with distributor and tech support
- crisp trigger response, better than a stock PTW
- light weight CNC body not as heavy as Prime but very clean, crisp and amazing finish I would have bought more of their body if i have any Systema PTW left
- upcoming new products such as their rumored ANGEL KING TW system (AK PTW for those AK fans)

Bad points
- Limited supply, due to the popularity of their products you may have to wait a few weeks or months for custom rifle
- Small operation compared to Systema
- Price, maybe a bit expensive for some

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UPDATE 1Longevity test 1 August 20th, 2012Loaded up ALL 24 Sytema mags and 18 FCC Vanaras based mags, PTW powered by Hot power 11.1V 1300mah 15C LiPo, King Arms 11.1V 1100mah 15C and airsoftparts 7.4V 1300mah 20C, M115, M135 Cylinder

- consistent 388-387fps with bastard .25 with the red Systema cylinder I’m suspecting the minor loss in fps was due to the longer inner barrel
- M115 cylinder with .20 = 365fps w.20bb bastard
- M135 cylinder with .20 = 395fps-392fps w.20bb bastard
- M95 cylinder with .20 = 339fps-335fps w.20bb bastard
- very consistent bullseye at 50ft
- Motor seemed to get smoother after 4 mags
- after nonstop firing all 42 mags with the exception of reloading mags the motor is a bit warm but not as warm as a 2012 Systema (1mag semi then 1 mag at triburst and auto)
- 11.1 LiPo needs to be changed after when I did a continous 27 mag triburst dump (alarm went off) it may last a lot longer if you do single shot
- No misfeeds no misfire after alternate switching modes
- need to file some very sharp edges from the NST rails
- No visible wear on the mechbox, gears or piston, all gears allignment are still centered and no excess grease visible
- Low voltage protection is a big plus for guys like me it allow me to run 7.4V LiPo without worries

A normal PTW can't do this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQoTD...eature=g-all-u
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xzEm...eature=g-all-u
FCC Advanced CPU for Systema PTW (3 burst) - YouTube

Pictures to follow

UPDATE 2 - September 20th, 2012
- Finished another set of testing plus a complete day of gaming (another combined 16bags of bastards .25), a few in sets in the rain with no issue or stopage, motor is running like butter
- Tried the new 11.1 1100mah batteries from elite airsoft they fit the buffer tub better
- a few more FCC parts installed for my NST rail
- a short upper coming soon

UPDATE 3 - September 22nd, 2012- received the 9"upper from DTT
- great finish, the new MUR upper is even nicer than the original
- gamed with it using the M90 cylinder, shoots 347fps with the Noveske firepig the sound is scary especially at full auto
- due to the shorter inner barrel distance is not as much as the 14" barrel 50-60ft and the spread is a lot larger at the end not as tight as the longer barrel
- finish and fitting are top notch no issue or misallignment

NEXT UP - FCC HK416D full build

Having seen and shot it I'm very impressed by the build. Very solid/consistent performance. The hopup application is just deadly.

I'm looking around for a backup/extra PTW and might go this route. I did not like the buzz (not so much as a noise as it was a feel in the hand) with the motor. It might smooth in a bit but it was very pronounced.

I can't help but shake the feeling that 2 out of 3 of your batteries are underpowered for the system. I've seen on their facebook page how they recommend a 11.1/15C. Your batteries are putting out 16.1-26A in the best conditions. I know the PTW electronics need 30A per shot, every shot...or you risk failure. Even if they've optimized the electronics/motor I can't see it being below 20A...but who knows.

From the close ups of their hopup mod...I still prefer my own mod :) It does look a whole lot better than the stock hopup though.

I wouldn't go with all the bells and whistles but rather a plain build.

All that said and done I'd be hard pressed though to just get a 2012 SCK and a full set of boards and motors from FCC...then mod the rest myself.

I was thinking about doing it bit by bit, thats the reason for purchasing the 2012 M16A3 but in the end after mashing some numbers it's cheaper to go all out. that way no waiting around for Prime to get their ass moving and no bullshit of trying to make things work as they should be from Systema, it's just less frustrating this way, you pay a bit more but on the positive side things work as they are design to and should be out of the box. I was extremely dissapointed at Systema for both their 2012 evolution and non evolution models my M4 (Evolution series) failed after 7 mags, my BNIB 2012 non evolution even it wasn't gamed was not as smooth as the FCC engine even with the DTT motor mods, my personal opinion is that Systema or whom ever systema contarct out to build their motor really dropped the ball on the QC. The need to remedy something that is supposed to be perfect/the best out of the box pissed me off more than having to spend money to get it fixed in the first place. I'm confident that this FCC will last a whole hell lot longer than my other PTW.

I don't know what the price would be of a FCC set of boards and motor but it's at least as much as a Systema replacement set if not quite a bit more.

Myself, I wouldn't be interested in a different body/body kit, modded hopup/barrel, different furniture/etc....and in that case any increase in cost essentially amounts to pre-QC of the eletronics/motor/setup. That is valuable...but how valuable is the key.

When I get on a computer that's not so locked down I'll run through a parts list of what I'd want and see what it works out to.

Do you have an inside track with these guys to get a good price on things?

More or less the same as a Systema replacement parts and it works, the only difference is as you know the wiring on the Systema wiring is very fragile and if you fucked it up you need a new board with the FCC the wiring is a lot more solid and in case you do fuck it up you can purchase it seperately.

Chris at Double Tap Tactical is the distributor for FCC here in Canada if not go to FCC Direct I dealt with Lung the prices are about the same not much of a mark up by DTT. For me is less hassle, no dealings with CBSA or other BS.

I can tell you that their EL001 and 002 boards are awesome they work like they are supposed to and they will work on 11.1V 15C LiPo without causing malfunction unlike the systema version.

So Chris is the guy to deal with at DTT?

If you're basically paying for QC and a replaceable wiring harness that's cool...I'll check out how much I can get that for. From what I've found out these are supposed to be work in 2008+ bodies...any word on that? It'd be cheaper to find a used base gun...especially if all I really want from it are the parts that don't break.

Keep quoting me you phucker!!

they will work on PTW and CTW platform the first one i did was on my 07 M4 infact i still have it here the only thing that is still Systema is the lower body and the stock, currently this is my back up in case the FCC or the TW5 fail. There is a guy name Francis from their facebook page he currently just completely replaced his failed 2012 Evolution motor with the complete FCC internals

I have had some issues with their motor. I installed one last week to replace a 2012 motor, and the brush leads were routed on the left side of the brush hoods. If this is not rectified, the motor will stop when the last of the brushes is worn down, but prior to that the commutator will be arc damaged.

Secondly, the finish work on the brush hoods was horrid. Lots of extra material which exceeded the endbell and lead to a nearly impossible installation of the grip and a very difficult removal of the grip. And this was the supposedly wider 2012 grip. The only solution is to tear down the motor and grind down the brush hoods and the insulators, I would not recommend doing it while they are installed on the motor.

Longevity is too early to tell, but it was way noisier than a Systema motor with a rewound armature.

Agreed on the noise part I even send them an email about it, their response was that since the 2.0/2.5 motor is stronger than a stock Systema it will have a louder noise emiting from the motor but they assured me that it is normal and it should quiet down a bit after some use and mine did smoother after about 4 - 6 mags worth of shooting and progressively quieter than when it was BNIB, I couldn't confirm on the brush hoods as mine was already came installed, however I did hear some issues with their 2.0 motor being a pain in the ass to installed. Mine is a newer 2.5 motor, there have been other issues with their 2.0 similar to those from Systema, this was documented and rectified with their 2.5 the only thing I miss when comparing their newer stuff vs the Tac/DTT motor is the buzzing as it is a stronger motor than stock.

Brad, the FCC motor did operate better than the stock 2012 it was a lot cooler even after repeated firing. now since you have more knowledge to this than anyone here, I happen to have a spare 2.5 motor from FCC that I don't mind contributing to you if you are willing to run a comparison test between the modded Tac motor/DTT/Systema stock. I love to see the difference as for normal guy like me aside from the different color and sound, they all looked the same. currently I have teh DTT motor mods on my TW5 and I have the Tac 490 motor leftover from my M4 upgrades to FCC

I did a torture test on a 2009 490 with one of Tack's rewound armatures at Battlefied in July. I put through about 6000 rounds on an M130 with the 9.6v Systema battery, which is arguably the toughest cylinder/voltage combo you can drive with a PTW. I still got about 2500 rounds per battery, which is expected, and considering the batteries are a minimum of 4 years old, not bad.

I ran 5000 rounds of this through the gun within the first 2 hours in semi, and at times the grip was so warm that it was uncomfortable to hold. And the entire time the motor ran like a champ, and a fellow player commented how my gun was so much quieter than his 2012, which packed it in later that game. He was the one with the FCC motor that I installed, and apparently it ran fine all last weekend. But his was the 2.5, or so I have been told, I don't remember what was wrote on it.

I work on motors for a living, and in my experience, noisy has never been good or normal. It usually results in a service call for me.

I look forward to building an FCC gun is winter, we'll seee what Chris comes up with, but that 7.5" Diplomat looks kinky.

Mine ran warm too but not as warm as my Evolution motor which failed after 7 mags, we reattached the connectors but it still wont run, i was actually looking forward to new Systema Evolution stuff but after being miserably dissapointed again I think I'll keep to the FCC stuff. now here is an interesting bit after Tyson mention the buzz feeling on his hands I swapped my grips to a normal Systema OEM grip from the magpul MiAD. the so called buzzing is gone and the sound emited sounded like a normal PTW

I have a MIAD on my gun and the fellow with the 2012 had the factory grip. My grip is solid and uses the 4 screws, not everyone who does the MIAD does that.

My grip use the 4 screws too, it's quite solid but not as thick as a OEM Systema grips.

On another note I shoot the gun last night with the M90 cylinder it was way more silent than the other two. The M90 cylinder make it actually sounded more like my TW5 the snappy twang when I use the heavier cylinder is gone,
my guess would be the combination of the lightweight body and light weight CNC parts through out the TW, low density polymer on the grips and heavy spring have a lot to do with how the vibrations/sounds being emitted from the TW

The biggest difference between FCC and Systema is customer support. FCC is wayyy ahead of Systema in that regard. They offer warranty on their motors too.

From the Systema forum....their CS is great until they really screw up and owe you chunk of money.

I have FCC motor, its way lower than unwound and rewounded motor.

What do you mean lower? is it a 2.0 or 2.5?

not sure how that came out, but I meant louder

Is there a list of models availlable with pictures and specs ?

Pretty excited to get one of these beast :)

check out their Facebook page

Months back while talking to Chris, he had mentioned mixed reviews on their motors. I've read a few myself and they range from; it's superior to the Systema motor, to it has the same or similar problems. Time will tell wether or not the FCC motors stand up.

As Macguyver has mentioned; the Systema motor has a manufacturing flaw, not an design one. I've personally seen what a rewound Systema motor can do. My 480 lasted from 2006 - 2010, and easily saw hundreds of thousands of rounds through it. This was after it had the armature redone of course. In fact, it only died when I smashed it on the ground at Cold Front II. I'll tell you, the Jedis felt that one. After that, I installed a 490 Systema motor. After almost two seasons it died, and has just now had it's armature done. If it follows suit, I'll get a few years out of it before it's finished.

I am upset that Systema did not fix this problem with the 2012, but the FCC are still untested on a large scale here. I'm excited to see what they can do though. But the performance difference will be so miniscule, it's longevity that'll make the difference. I'd rather have a Systema motor fail, get rewound, and last years; than an FCC one that lasts a little longer than the Systema one initially does.

Either way; if it's Systema or FCC (really anything PTW), the Double Tap is the way to go. Your not going to find a more honest guy than Chris to deal with.

+ 10000

Chris helped pop my PTW cherry earlier this year....amazing guy to deal with.

This what made me dump all my Systema in the first place I've had their gen 1 to their latest version all of them had issues with the exception of the TW5 and the Tac/DTT modified version is the logest running PTW I ever owned, it is sad and aggrevating when a company refused to fix an ongoing issue that spread over three major market, instead of fixing the issue tehy came up with another monstrosity in teh version mad max. From first hand experience my relationship with FCC have been great, my TW worked great with no issues or other gremlins when I want it and customer service and support from both FCC and DTT is freakin awesome. Currently I'm putting this custom TW through it's paces and so far it has surpassed my 2012 Evolution by a great mile, this will be an on going test for the next three months putting roughly around 2000 rnds/week if not more (so far I've used about 8.5 bags of .25 bastards). So far aside from the initial warm motor in the beginning after the first testing, it has never failed or jammed yet.

I went the buy a used 2008+ ptw and im gonna just buy FCC internals/elec, and just wait for her to give out on me then do a complete swap over, or just motor if that goes first. real question what are the actual differences of there speed/torque boxs? is the speed really that much more noticable and worth it? ima semi kinda guy so torque seems more practical specialy since we run 425-440fps.

how much faster is your speed box really?+ 4-6 rps?

I have a gen 1 PTW M16 A3. I had it modified to handle the newer style cylinders. It has my original 2007 mechbox from the gun I smashed. It's on it's second set of boards, and second motor. After so many years, that's a fairly low cost to keep it running. If you take care of it, the only thing to worry about is to have your motor rewound. But then it goes for years.


I can verify that the Final Evolution (2012) guns are superior in performance to the prior models. Not by much, but the difference is noticeable.

I actually feel a bit of survivors guilt that my kit/scavange built 2007 upgrade to 2008 PTW has actually had zero issues once it was working (side selector board needed to be replaced where the little micro switch was gummed up, motor worked fine, I modded the hopup...nothing else to do). The motor has been going strong but I think it's showing it's age/wear and tear. Sum total of issues I've had with it are mags that can't feed fast enough in full auto (doesn't really matter to me) and a broken piston rack when there was a bad jam and the piston didn't go forward before the sector came around.

I can't pull the trigger faster in in semi to really notice a difference with an FCC build. I think it's a faster shot cycle...but the difference is beyond what I could need.

I'm on the fence on whether to scoop up a good deal on a 2008 and mod/upgrade it as necessary with FCC parts...or to go with what basically amounts to a tuned and QC'd build (IMO) from FCC.

Don't need it because my PTW is still trucking along...but it's an attractive lure out there to start another build.

it's not much of a speed factor the difference between the speed and torque box is the difference in metal material in the gears where the speed box are recommended for the weaker spring (M95-M135) and the torque box (M135 and up, the heaviest I believe was some guy using a M170 type)is for heavier DMR style application where single shot with a heavier spring come to use more often than burst or auto fire. I have their torque box which was ordered by mistake it's about 108gr heavier than their speed box on my rifle. I will have a torque box in my NST race rifle build from them soon. The full auto function is way to fast for the mags to keep up beside I rarely do full auto.

Wow a Gen1? mine lasted 3 games before the boards go crazy on me, it would auto fire without pulling the trigger and eventually dead

It's still a freak of nature on how your PTW, made of differents parts last a whole lot longer than my factory QC POS

It had new planetaries, sector gear, lefthand gearbox shell, hopup, trigger EL001 and EL003, buffer cap, stock pipe, motor, and motor endplate. Essentially, it was brought up to the same performance level as a 2007 MAX.

Mine was stock, the first one pimp daddy Tru got, went to Wasaga that weekend played the first two games fine, the third one after about two mags on single it started to fart burst then full auto then it went dead.

The FETs on the old Gen 1 board had no low-voltage protections and would usually fail closed and the gun would run on.

Gen 3 had that, but only 2 voltage regulators and 4 drive FETs and those would fail, occasionally closed, but mainly open.

I had about 5-6 Gen 1 M16s and they all got upgrades, some to Gen 4.

I should have clarified a little more. I had a 2007 M4 and ended up smashing it on the ground at Cold Front II, when I tripped. I got my hands on a gen-1 M16 and had it converted to be compatible with 2007 plus parts. I put the internals from my 2007 into it, and a brand new 2008 VUK kit. My 490 motor finally parished after a season and bit, and has now had the Tack mod like my old 480 did. I bought my first PTW in 2006, and I still have many original parts from it in my current one. So other than the original gun, my costs have been fairly low. Everything breaks or wears out eventually. But when you use expensive equipment, the repairs replacement cost more.

Here's a list of major fixes in the last six years;

- 480 motor mod $200 (motor died 3 months after purchase)
- replacement lower receiver $270 (this is what broke apart when I biffed it)
- VUK $330 (motor died when I smashed my gun on the ground; but it was already four years old. My boards fried when I used an oven to dry them out after Mason relic II, but they were also four years old)
- replacement gold cylinder $190 (I dented the casing of my first one by jamming a BB into it)
- selector switch board $25 (old one still worked, I just bought it with the VUK)
- 490 motor mod $220 (motor died this last June, and was installed in April a year prior)

Total cost is approx: $1235
Approx: $206 a year on fixing my PTW

That's not a lot considering the performance, or that my gun is almost never down. Not to mention a lot of that damage was my fault, not thing wearing out. I'd say that if you looked after your weapon, and expected to have to do the motor mod soon after purchase, you'd have few issues.

When Swatt13's gun was done up after years of use and abuse, it was horrific. I found metal parts, shattered BBs and grass inside of his magazines. Macguyver I believe found a stick and some other goodies inside his mechbox. It was still going strong.

PTWs are a high cost right off the line. So every part, fix, and accessory is expensive as well. They aren't for those that have a tight budget. If you sold your soul to own one; look out! It "will" cost you a small fortune in the future.

If I could change two things about them; firstly and obviously the jackasses that assemble/manufacture the motors, and secondly the receiver. The receivers are fairly tough, but I've seen a few break. It's always in the same spot right by the grip and takedown pin.

I still wouldn't run any other electric system. My ancient PTW can propel a 0.28g BB well over 300 feet (that was measured and consistent distance using a gold cylinder and the MacGuyver hop-up mod). The evolutions can do that with a slightly better grouping (that's stock, right out of the box).

I've seen some very nice custom built AEGs. The last one we had was a $1700 build. A Systema Revolution gear box, G&P motor, MOSFET, 11.1v lipo, custom hopup with a hard concave bucking, Prometheus inner barrel, etc, etc. The gun chrono'ed at 410 FPS consistently, and was nowhere near the distance or grouping of the PTW. We used BB Bastard 0.25g, 0.28g, and 0.30g rounds. Although it was a performer, it wasn't the same. We had better luck with a WE M14 gas open bolt with a full RA-Tech internal upgrade. It shot 413 FPS, and still didn't match the performance of a PTW.

So if FCC wants to survive, their motors will have to outlast a Systema one that's been modified, and their boards will have to tougher than the stock ones. It really is as simple as that.

My first experience with them was their very first PTW, it lasted 3 games the replacement lasted a bit longer at about two months before I accidentally drop the rifle, cracked the metal body and the gun stoped working, the replacement for that didn't fare out to well either. The M733 replacement was fine until I use a black cylinder and the piston somehow got stripped clean. After all that and about $5K later I sweared off PTW, then I got back in after seein Tac Modded rifle, again issues with the boards etc. up to my most recent 2012 both the Evolution and non Evolution model, The Evolution model worked for about 7 mags before it got too hot to hold and eventually died not taking anymore chances I decide to go Full FCC and ditch my remaining PTWs and only keeping the TW5 which work like a charm.

Aside from burning up boards, ECU, motors the TW from systema is a very nice design how ever the finicky wiring and board plus the ongoing motor issue really put some people off I have some Stock King arms AEG that will work no matter what condition or weather I'm playing in but my $2.5K plus TW will have to sit in a gun case. FCC have taken a perfectly design TW and make it work as it should be out of the box and I'm trully thankfull for that.

Wow, thats bad luck. The rack gear in the black cylinder shredding can be caused by two things. Either running a Systema 12v battery with it, or stripping down your cylinder for cleaning/rebuild, and not lock tightening the screw back in. If not that then you've had some bad luck. My team has been running PTWs for seven years, and we have collectively around twelve to fifteen of them; including a TW5.

I personally have never seen a "board issue". I've seen boards wear out due to age, or people fry them by not taking care them (me); i.e. Using heat to dry them, not drying them after playing in the rain, leaving your battery plugged in for a couple months, using the wrong type of battery, experimenting on them, you name it. I clean my boards with an air duster can after playing in wet or moist conditions, I disconnect the battery immediately if I think they've gotten wet, and I wear latex gloves when handling them. All the boards I've had or seen lasted at least a few years before they wore out, or someone fried them. I have however heard of a fette going, but rarely.

First gen is usually gross with anything. It sounds like you've been tainted by the originals. Unfortunately the newer ones still have the damn motor issue. And out of the four we purchased; two of them had motor issues within the first couple of months. We've since had them all properly wound, and so far so good. I've heard from more than one person that the new motors get very hot. I haven't heard that they've been too hot to hold though.

We beat our guns up pretty good, and I'm impressed. The only issue I have is the strength of the receiver behind the grip. I've seen two break there, and two crack there. A friend of mine bought a steel body for his, and I'd suggest that to anyone; but once again there is a significant cost. I'm very impressed with the new cylinders, hop-ups and inner barrels. They really improved the performance from great to greater.

You aren't the only one that's had issues though, so don't feel bad. I can attest that I've had exponentially more issues with AEGs; they're just cheap to fix.

In total I had about 9 PTW excluding the broken ones with as much as 6 at one time ranging from the 1st gen to the 2012, all with the exception of the Prime/Tac/DTT modded and my TW5 have issues, the Prime/Tac CQBR that I have was running so smooth for a year until the cable on the board snap (completely my fault). Comparing the amount of cash I drop to make a PTW worked like a charm vs going full FCC, I'm actually saving around $1000 plus all the time wasted which are priceless. I have no doubt that Systema design a great TW however like you said earlier it's the assholes who QC or assembled these things that should get swift kick in the balls.

Gen 1 M90 used a zinc-alloy rack gear. Same material that Marui used on their sector gears. They used to strip out all the time. After Gen 1, all rack gears are steel, and I have seen one with the first tooth stripped (just this week on a 2012 stainless M130 cylinder) and I have heard of a first tooth break.

I have a Celcius piston with a rack gear warped like a slithering snake. Cheap steel.

Keep us up to date on the FCC life span. That really is the only thing I'm personally curious about. Are the FCC optics sealed? There was some aftermarket ones that were, but I don't think they were FCC. We have a few rewound 7511 motors now, I'll let everyone know how long they last .....which could be years; "hopefully".

To date I have not had to replace a single part on my PTW's. I am sure its coming but thus far nothing.

Next time your cylinder get a dent on the outside just buy the outer tube. Cylinders for 2012 are now steel and you could just buy the steel tube as well so no more warping or dents. :)

Shush You know you just jinxed yourself right? Now the PTW demons going to get you. I've known guys who had PTW for years and not have issue but once they do it's like trying to plug 11 holes in a dam with ten fingers

Nearly all of that comes down to misdiagnosis of a problem and inneffective repair.

You have to be thorough, and sometimes seemingly major problems have a minor fix and vice-versa. It is exceedingly rare to have mechanical issues in a gun that is built correctly by someone who can recognize when there are tolerance differences and account for it, not just shrug it off.

I have gotten so many of them where they were:

1) Kits that the owner/builder had trouble with, didn't do proper construction, had off-spec parts that affected performance or used a hammer and chisel to install an RIS (true story).

2) Factory-built guns that sustained damage (sometimes catastrophic and sometimes as minor as 1 loose screw) such that they were non-functional or suffered horrible performance. This damaged often came from user-installed components that were incompatible or improperly installed.

When it comes to installation of aftermarket parts, in this case clone manufacturers, these issues need to be addressed during installation. My current experience with FCC is limited to their motor, hop-up and a couple other small parts, not the complete gun.

I can tell you from past experience that Celcius has been less than stellar and their tolerances and parts quality is atrocious. I got a gun with the buffer tube cross threaded into a Systema lower. We all know that the factory lower is cast zinc alloy, and is not very stong. The stock started cross-threaded and the owner (also a Celcius dealer) continued to thread it in. It mashed up the flat threads on the tube, and when finished, the rear of the buffer tube sat 2"+ higher than at the receiver. I removed it, and upon inspection, noted that none of the threads in the receiver was even marred. I also kept his damaged cylinder components so I can show people how poor the quality and materials are between Celcius and Systema.

Everything I have seen thus far from FCC has been good, except the brush-hood end of the 2.5 motor. Their tolerance between the pinion gear and motor shaft is a little loose for my liking, and there have been reports of it loosening up over time, but a recent check by me after 7000 rounds has shown it to be solid.

I was tempted to cheapen out on a SCK kit after the slew of factory crap I got on their 1st gen PTW, Thank God Tony talked me out of it there seem to be where all the major issue from PTW is from their SCK kit but mind you that most of my issue was from a factory QC unit. I had a former teammate SCK built by Redwolf failed but the same person had the same kit built by Tony and it's still going strong with only 1 motor upgrade needed. I guess when it comes down to it is that people expectations on these toys are sometime too high, expectations such as bomb proof electronics or parts on a $2K toy that would last forever is still a dream and airsofter can dream. when compared to a regular AEG a solid PTW is still a way to go the tecnology advancement in recent years on airsoft products certainly let me enjoy the sports a whole lot more than before.

From what I understand SCK are stuff that didn't pass their QC for the factory built (where warranty covers the gun). As a result, they decided to put it in SCK (no warranty)

I as well have now disassembled a newer CTW to help a friend out. I'm incredibly unimpressed. When everything works, it shoots well (not as good as a PTW). But the inner design, and certain parts were dismal.

While waiting for the Turkey fest to begin I had a chance to do some comparison with my friend DTT 2012 Evolution M4 Max, This is the result after comparison with a stock upper internal from Systema and another upper from FCC with DTT internals VS my FCC full custom.

- The 2012 has a higher pitch sound compared to the FCC
- The DTT Motor mods no doubt cured the temp issue that is plaguing the Systema 2012 stock Evolution model
- Range wise both the DTT hop up mods and the FCC are by far way better than stock even with the "improvement" Systema made.
- The tapered inner barrel in the stock 2012 evolution do nothing special, the normal tightbore FCC uses still outrange the stock, although the DTT Hop up mod on the other upper assembly did match the FCC accuracy and distance
- At full auto the stock Systema VS the FCC was all over the place, (It performed better with the DTT mod upper) at 50ft
- The Systema SS Cylinder is really nice even in my FCC, it did leave a nasty grease residue on my gearset after three mags worth of FA (why they use that cheap brownish grease still boggles my mind, what ever happen to the lighter grease they used to use?)

- just for the hell of it we tried the Evolution vs my TW5 (with DTT motor and hop up mod) using both the Blue Cylinder on each TW the TW5 excells over the Evolution in FA but when we swapped the upper to a normal barrel instead of the tapered version the Evolution fared a lot better at FA, So if you are in the process of getting a 2012 Evolution don't forget to get the motor and hop up mods from either DTT or Tack the differnce may sound minor but it put a lot of ommph in the performance.
- received some accesories from FCC for my long upper I'll post up pics of the "Zombie killer"

Not sure who started the Myth that DTT is the lone Canadian distributer for FCC but Imperial Airsoft distributes their products as well.

Also I would like to point out DTT doesn't make the outer shells you keep talking about wildcard Rampo the mechanic at FCC makes them.

Just an update on their motors,shortened board I used them all summer long with no issues what so ever probably 50,000+ bb's through my gun. I tinker with my gun constantly so I use a combination of FCC hop with my own system which gives me the ability to over hop a .28

I always thought that DTT was the only distributor for FCC product in Canada, Chris (DTT) was actually recommended by Roger at FCC as the distributor in Canada.
What shell are you talkin about bud? if you are talking about mag shells I never said DTT makes them and I know about Rampo he makes and R&D a lot of the other FCC parts. I've went through roughly around 20 bags of bastard .25/.28/.30 and so far their hop up and everything else on the NST rifle is like what a PTW should have been. The only regrets I have is I was hesitant about their product early on due to soem bad reviews of PTW forum

No problems, I have yet to see a bad product come through my hands and I usually do most of the install work for my team.

Just a little update so far I have shot an equivalent of:

47.75 x bags of BB bastard .25 (Now I'm completely cleaned out of my excess grenade ammo)
2 x bags of .20 BBB
2 x bags of .28 BBB
.30 x bags of Madbull .25 in the last 4 months

Final run down : PROS
- zero issues of reliability, work great under hot, cold and wet conditions (light rain, no submersion in water)
- Motor was warm at first but not as warm as Systema
- Accuracy improved as the hop up gets worked in
- No blemish or other noticeable worn parts after excess of 100,000 shots, internals is like the first day I open it
- Mysterious Grease that they use is like pure Teflon, no brown stuff that Systema use
- No failure on any electronic parts even after extreme usage and low voltage battery (7.4V LiPo)
- No Jams or misfeed from mags
- Amazing Customer support and service from both the manufacturer and dealer
- New exciting model project in 2013 such as a SCAR, AK and HK417 platform

CONS :

- Price
- Limited quantity and selection on models (XM177, M4, M4 NST, HK416D, M4DD, M4 Troy, M4 VLTOR)
- No other platform available yet but in near future (2013-14)

Final comments: definitely worth getting another (I already ordered the HK 416D), very reliable PTW, this kind of performance is what a PTW should be out of the box from Systema. Price may be a sticker shock to some but you don't have to go my route and got the bells and whistle, a basic set up should not set you back more than a new PTW from Systema with all the upgrades. With the emergence of PTW clones and compared to the FCC from what I saw out of the DTW the FCC will definitely beat it hands down, the only thing that can probably compete or even excel the FCC in some area would be a fully modified rifle by the master Tac himself

Good to hear. One of ours has purchased his first FCC motor, so we'll see how she holds up. I hope Systema takes this "friendly" competition seriously and ups their game a little. Making best, better is a good goal, and I'm glad FCC is releasing quality parts. They may very well end up the "RA-Tech", of the Systema world.

FCC was rumored to be making a budget gun under $2000, probably same internals but with alot less of the niceties.

I'd be up for a QC'd "basic" package. Aside from the 416 builds I'd want to do my own thing.

If it were me, I'd buy a used PTW, something in rough shape, painted body, whatever. Then buy the FCC 416 kit and harvest the internals for it. Have your own 416 for under $2k, and sell off the spare parts.

All you really is gearbox, motor, electronics and inner barrel assembly. Then pick a stock, or get the 2013 VUK and get a nice sealed buffer, Bushmaster-style stock and shortened EL-003.

Instead of trying to fix and work with an existing design, FCC with their machining capabilities, why not make their owm gun?

They do. But they also realize that the market for things like CNC bodies, inner barrels, motors, electronics and do-dads is enough to run a business all its own.

For sure. I've been thinking about making a piece by piece PTW.

Honestly, the Systema mechbox, hop-up, barrel, and electronics are a must. What does FCC make their receivers from?

Aluminum, and they do have a budget model with basic components coming soon.

i have been looking at the FCC electronics for a while now, but i just got my PTW this last winter. so i cant justify spending more money while my stuff is working just fine, although burst function would be awesome. ill more than likely wait till something fails in the electronics, then replace all of them with FCC stuff.
as far as the motors go, for now I'm happy with my DTT modded motor, and i hope that it lasts for 3-4 years, maybe by then, we will know what the best replacement is :p

FCC will be releasing their own direct competitor to the Systema PTW. Current plans with the FTW are it will come with a milspec buffer tube, shortened ecu, a Midwest Industries replica rail and no sights. The body will be a die cast from better material than what the Systema bodies are. Pricing will be around the same price as a factory built PTW. There will be more news coming in the next couple months.

Lung from FCC showed me some pictures, they are actually quite nice I'm not a fan of the midwest industries replica rail they look too much like a hybrid of VTAC and JP, i much prefer they put on a slimline rail like the TRX or Viking Tac replica.

if I'm willing to sell my soul to DTT what kind of discount do i get xD

I have the biggest, juiciest and the most bad ass steak and all the bacon jam he can get his hands on for Chris if he ever showed up in Toronto

Haha. For that, I will.

The Midwest rail is a slim rail. It looks nice. RacingManiac has the real one on one of his builds.

Shane, we currently aren't taking souls at this time but if we did....5%? ;)

I prefer if they stick with Delta ring handguard. This gun isn't made for porn show, it's for training. Most if not all military AR-15 are still running Delta ring with the few SOF that swapped it.

Chris can DTT get all the FCC stuff in?

i have a friend that wants to buy a PTW and get the M416 kit from FCC! though im tempted to say no because then his PTW will be sexier than mine :p

well they have that too but I guess the budget rifle are meant to attract the potential Systema PTW buyer away to FCC so they are doing it with what most buyers want but without th eadded cost. So far my NST rifle is solid so is the 9" diplomat with the TRX. as some of my friends and those who knew me for a long time have said if a airsoft gun can last more than a month with me then its quality and build has definitely been tested

Don't be jealous, Chris at DTT can absolutely help you, I have the full build rifle coming in

Absolutely right. Chris and DDT are "officially" FCC suppliers. You won't find a better retailer anywhere. Contact DTT with any questions, and they will help you out.

Yep Chris at DTT is definitely the place to go. I'd do business with them again in a heartbeat.

Yeah, we can get everything. We stock the more popular upgrade bits but do special orders on the guns. The website will be updated soon with more of their inventory and prices.


Thanks for all the kind words guys. We appreciate it!

I agree the rail isn't for everyone, but most people get rid of the delta ring and hand guards right away for some type of rail. How many AR's do you see kept in that stock configuration these days? Everyone has to stick lights and lasers on the now.

Majority of AR-15's for US military have been upgraded to a bolt up rail design (See Daniel Defense) and have completely converted to a free float barrel for better stability.

Some branches of the military/LE are taking it one step further and only ordering completely monolithic designs now to completely cut out the requirement to order "rail systems". (LWRC and H&K being prime examples)

I highly doubt the regular forces switch out the KAC RAS already.

I prefer floating rails over the dated plastic handguards. Besides paying a premium price, I would expect rails.

As for military use... Why do those players that insist on realism wear baseball caps and not a helmet?

http://i483.photobucket.com/albums/r...sk/Because.jpg

A little quick update from my experience with FCC, I finally get to fart around the 416 complete build tonight, with the little range time I got, all I have got to say is WOW! the 416 is lighter than any other full metal 416 out there (due to the lightweight T6 all CNC aliuminum construction) the performance was like any other FCC product they are top notch but this time due to the short CQB'ish barrel it have more of a loud snap than that infamous PTW Zip sound. The only thing that made my 416 stand out when compared to the rest is that I got some of their silver bling parts on it like my trigger, boltstop and mag release and a Magpul Mbuis2 sights and MOE grips.

Now the Cons
- one of the downside to this beautiful AEG is that my FCC Pmag an dan actual Pmag wont fit, you will have to make a slight modification to the mag catch notch on the mag to make it fit, so for the time being your regular Systema magazine will fit.
- Another con on this complete build is the stock the LMT replica stock feels very plastic definitely not my cup of tea and definitely should not be on a gun that cost this much, so I forsee a Troy Battle Axe stock on this baby in teh very near future.

- Shooting the gun with the newer Velocity M90 cylinder resulted in a nice and CQB friendly 330fps (more on this later when I get some more range time) performance wise there are no overheating like the Systema. A quick shoot in my makeshift range resulted in a constant 330-328 fps @8 mags semi and 6 mags full auto, Tri burst function was not tested due to lack of time and dead batteries

First impression conclusion
definitely worth the purchase, especially for those who wants the best TW performance, the cons on this gun is minor when you put the whole package together. FCC is rectifying the mag fitment issue with their new Rampo mags soon to be released and a few other "correct parts" like the 416 tango down grips, with the rumored upcoming release of their AK platform I can't wait for their new products.

Pictures of the bling and updated review will be up later

1 quick question: we can legally import metal body into canada now? or still have to go through some retailer?

I got in an extra lower from FCC, they are a full complete lower and attached to it is the proper paperwork, the item spent a day at custom in Missisauga and was released the same day. The lower has the full Noveske rifle works logo and details so I guess it's fine if you have the proper papers

Awesome review, probably the most detailed FCC review on the internet. I've been thinking about getting a FCC 416 and I'm pretty much sold at this point.

How well does the burst function work? Are you getting good groupings with it?

The Triburst worked by simply flicking a switch on the board right now on the 416 I got it on semi and full auto set up, while the Triburst was set up on my other two Noveske NST rifles, but tonight at TTAC3 i was getting really nice tight 1.5" groupings at semi(ask Talon) once the hop up got worked in a bit (100 rnds or so) it needs to get worked in a bit more before I give it a final tune but as it stands right now it is getting very sweet

Get the kit... its awesome.

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/...ps79dff81f.jpg

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Get the complete rifle is even better, putting a Systema gearbox on a beautiful body like that does not to the kit justice, the smoother cyclic rate of the FCC gearbox makes a TW feels so much better

Some people don't have the luxury of spending that much money..... especially when they already have PTW internals....Systema internals aren't bad. In fact they're more than enough to run a ptw.

I'll probably get the complete PTW since it will be my first one.

Was the 416 battle grip included with the kit? I was under the impression that FCC had not released it yet.

Trust me I understand but before I dived in into a complete rifle, I used to have six of them within that six PTWs only two of them were in excellent working condition, one was a Prime/DTT/Tack mod and the other is the TW5, the rest were in several stage of waiting parts from DTT or waiting for warranty parts from Wallace at Zshot including two brand spanking new 2012 non evolution and evolution model with less than 10 mags fired through them. I couldn't even begin to tell you how much money was sunk into the others over the years, You can say that Wildcard and PTW's have not gotten to a good start (starting with the GEN1).

What made me go all out was mostly a large ditch effort to reevaluate and salvage the technological and design reputation from a AEG parts company that I loved since I started playing airsoft almost two decades ago, plus even with some FCC parts on some of the PTWs I had I was still experiencing issues such as motors heating up and what finally pushed me on over the edge was a old teammate got one of their XM177 complete rifle and he let me play with it (he literally have to pry it off my hands) I couldn't believe how smooth and snappy it sounded when fired. The price difference between a fully factory QC rifle from FCC is not much more or in some cases cost less than a fully titts up PTWs complete with a Prime or any after market mods and the best thing was IT WORKS FLAWLESSLY!. It worked so well that aside from my TW5 I sold all the rest of my PTW including my beloved Prime/DTT/Tack TW (after all issues was finally fixed)

In any case FCC products are like godsent for PTWs owners who have issues with their TW or those who simply just wants more performance, they are a very good investment and byfar the best one I've made in Airsoft.

I got a MOE on mine, I have their pre production 416 battlegrip (Tango down) I find that its too small for my big Asian hands. The G&P PTW Storm grip is a good alternative but I like the feel of the MOE grip

I saw it yesterday and that thing was like butter to my ears, they need to find a way to get that sweet audible chocolate into more PTWs!

Not to go off track but this AK PTW intrigues me. Does anyone have preproduction pics?

Look up their facebook page, they have a computer schematics of it. The "angel king" project has been their not so top secret project. I for one are a few that are patiently waiting for it.

Big Asian hands is a bit of a contradiction, isn't it? :D

Sell it to me, I need one for my 416.

It is Christmas bonus time, I thought I was going to just get a kit, but it was good year.

Not all Asians are small, this Asian is well......pretty big. PM inbound

I found a couple pics with recievers and grips. Looks like its going to be a ak-74m. Woot! If it was a ak-47 I would have been disappointed.

Is there any indication on release period for these?

nope nothing on it but conversation between myself and FCC is they are anticipating a possible 2013 release in addition they are also releasing some new projects, I for one are arranging a special custom Anodized "Twins" model for myself after my first NST "Door Banger" rifle but in full silver and black Anodized, sort of my Pimp gun

Oh brad looks like I'm coming over for Christmas!

Ok folks as promised a more updated and detailed review of the FCC 416D complete rifle.

First off props to Chris at Double Tap Tactical for bringing this beauty to me, his customer service is by far one of the best and if there is any PTW related needs this is the go to guy.

The FCC 416D will be my third out of four FCC complete rifle since my first purchase from them earlier this year, starting with the complete Noveske NST carbine, the NST CQBR, and the upcoming custom Black and silver metallic Anodized race rifle. All of their product are top notch, their body is made from a CNC T6 Aluminum body, which give them the strength yet very light when compared to a similarly priced Prime body PTW. The 416D have a limited run of 1000 units with most of the preorder full kit being sold I have to wait for mine. The wait allows me to customize it a bit more, swapping parts and actually build it to my spec, I opted for a short CQB esque carbine build with an optional 11” inner and outer barrel for changes later on. I swapped the normal trigger to their limited silver race trigger and their enlarge silver bolt stop for the added bling, Along with other minor changes from the original kit such as a Knights trigger guard, Troy Ambi mag release and their Noveske Barricade stop to give it the Zombie basher look. I wanted to get the HK417 crane stock or their version of the Battle Axe CQB stock but it’s not available, so I settle on their LMT Crane. I have to admit this is one of my least favorite parts in this gun, the appearance have a cheap plastic look (Which I’ll remedy later on) and the lack of a proper HK sights and grips on their kit even though is not a deal killer, might be perceived as being cheap or incomplete for some buyers, on my full complete build I opt for the Magpul MOE grips as they fit quite nicely on my hands, I have their prototype 416/Tango down style grip but I find it a bit small in my hands.

Mag fitment in this gun is weird I use three different TW magazine, Systema OEM, FCC/Rampo Pmag and PTS Pmag. Both PTS and FCC mag will not click on securely without using a lot of force this Is due to the spec on the lower (which is an actual HK416 specs) how ever with a slight modification to the mag catch slot on the magazine itself will fix that issue. The Systema OEM mags will fit without issue. FCC will be issuing a new version of their P mag that will fit the 416D in the near future.

Performance of the gun is nothing short of being PERFECT it is definitely what a PTW should be out of the box, the short barrel gave the gun a distinctive snap/pop compared to the traditional snappy sound from a PTW, my only complaint was their hop up when fresh out of the box it shoots a bit low, the new rubber that they have need a few more mags to work it in (10 mags) and when compared to a older BNIB hop up rubber the one that came with the 416 complete rifle is indeed a bit more stiff but once the hop up rubber is worked in the shot is more consistent and deadly, producing a very tight 1” grouping at 20ft.
I had a chance to give it a full game on Friday night at TTAC3 and some range time with the Velocity Black M90 and their Blue M115 cylinder both times the gun was powered by airsoftstore Gen ace battery pack 11.1V 1200mah 20C each time they performed amazing, consistent shots with minimal drop in fps. On Velocity black cylinder it shoots out a healthy 325-323fps w/ .20 bastard bb compared to a Systema PTW black cylinder it shoots out 341-335fps w/ .20 bastard bb. It is a minor drop in fps when you use the velocity cylinder but it gives you a more shot to shot consistency with minimal leak when compared to the Systema cylinder. Another interesting fact is that the Velocity cylinder spring is much softer and slightly longer than the Systema springs.

So aside from a few minor complaints about the build kit and complete gun it is by far the best 416D replica I have layed my hands on, the build, finish and most importantly the performance blows any other replica the only thing that will make it even better if somehow FCC can implement a blowback system. If you are in the market for a PTW and a 416 this is it.

Pros
- Beautiful finish on the rifle
- Light weight compared to the other 416 build
- Amazing performance out of the box, what a PTW should be
- Deadly hop up and a short breaking in period (10 mags)

Cons
- Lack of proper grip on the build kit
- No HK iron sights
- Minor P mag fitment issue
- Limited 1000 unit run

Gun porn will be posted later on

Great review Jay!
I second this being the most authentic 416 on the market. It felt just like the real thing, so they nailed it. Throw in PTW performance with that external H&K feel and you have quite the winning combination as far as I am concerned.

Appreciate you letting me check it out first hand at TAC13. Even more anxious now to unbox mine.... when it actually decides to show up.

Looking forward to those gun porn pics!

Sexy pics demanded.

I concur!

Here's mine:
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Pics are coming gents, Spartan is that the Systema P mag or is it the PTS version?

Here is the crappy Iphone edition I'll update some more Hi Res gun porn later
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e4...ps04afefa9.jpg

Hey, ever see an FCC motor rip itself apart?

No?

Well now you have!

http://i483.photobucket.com/albums/r...k/FCCMotor.jpg

/Giggle. Back to HK you go!

What the hell happen there Chris?? No worries They'll replace that for you They are good with their warranty claims