Low end guns are...popular?
 

maybe because i'm relatively new to the airsoft culture as a whole, but as far as i can tell those that are in this hobby are generally quite "hardcore" about it (though i do use the term hardcore lightly).

that being said, i often see people recommend and purchase the best guns possible or brands (VFC, KA...etc etc)

yet on the other hand, i see retailers bring in "lower" (again, term used very lightly) brand quality guns in, like Dboys, CYMA, JG...etc etc and it always sells and always in demand

my question is, if everyone is so hardcore and picky over the best of the best, why is it that the other brands are equally (if not more sometimes) popular?

(for the record, i don't mean to offend anyone if they favor particular brands like CYMA AK's or something, im just curious)

We're not. Or at least not all of us. That's the answer.

Also, JG and CYMA guns are very good value for the price.

It's not what's the best brand that's recommended, but what works. Most players buy top brands assuming that it will work without issue. But some cheaper brands will do the same and give the most bang for their buck.

Well i bought a VFC SR because its higher quality and reviews on it are excellent. I rather pay extra hundreds for a reliable gun than a CYMA or JG that i'll have to upgrade right away if i want to make sure its reliable. Though it depends on your priorities of course. I don't have a family so i can ditch out a bit more money but of course, im not crazy enough to buy what people calls SOP MOD or systema for 1000$+++ gun

Having been around for about 15 years, I can see how it may look that way, I also have a pretty good idea of what's good and whats crap, and I generally know what people are running on the field.

The main problem with your (OP) observation is that you're drawing a conclusion by combining several distinct issues:

1. The advice is usually given by experienced players: they already have most of their gear and aren't buying that many new guns in most cases; when they do they're usually looking for something more specific based on their experience;

2. You presume noobs actually follow the advice they're given;

3. Typically, new players want to get in for cheap and play a bit before they invest a large sum into the hobby. Because there's usually a lot of other stuff to buy when starting out, the gun budget usually takes a hit unless the player has very deep pockets. So while they may know a different brand gun is a better choice, they just can't afford it out the gate;

4. We get a lot of new players every year and there's also a fairly high attrition rate for new players, too (a large segment of players don't last more than 2-3 years). It's generally those that stay longer that invest in the better equipment;

5. Last but not least, experienced players generally know how to work on their guns (or have found someone to doc their gun), and for many the criteria change a bit since everything doesn't have to be fawesome right out the box. The CYMA AKs, for example, have a great body and can be vastly improved by swapping out a few gearbox parts (or assembling a new box from scratch). This makes it a great value.


So for retailers who have to keep an inventory, the high end guns aren't as appealing since they may not move as quickly while the steady (and even growing) influx of new players looking for budget-friendly entry level guns means the cheaper guns usually will move.

You also need to take an extra step back and look at the cheap guns being offered (by retailers whom, most of the time, have experience as players) versus all the cheap guns available on the market: the really crap guns aren't being offered by most, save a tiny handful of generally ill-reputed retailers.

I'll just chime in here and say that the 3 brands you have described are more like todays mid-range. The low-end is solidly-occupied by the likes of APS and JM and other oddball brands. You also have to leave room for the super low end, like the walmart guns and such.

I have worked extensively on examples from each brand and they're more than adequate for me as a tech to turn into tough, high performance AEGs. Hang around on Airsoft Mechanics or YouTube for long enough and you'll find hundreds of examples of people who buy CYMA and JG guns for next to nothing, rework and upgrade them, and turn them into monstrous firehoses that can handle high workloads, high rates of fire, and last through winter play.

Both brands occupy mid-range "positions of excellence" in different categories.

JG for example makes one of the highest torque, low heat, low noise neo motors in airsoft, the JG Blue, and it often sells for 30 to 40 bucks.

CYMA's version 3 gearboxes are considered to be very tough and easy to upgrade, especially for the prices their guns sell at. Many of the CYMAs I have looked at come with high torque neo motors, while every King Arms and most VFCs I've upgraded from stock came with weakass ferrite motors. Many of their AKs come with real wood and can be weathered-down to look very nice indeed.

I dont' have too much to say about DBoys quality, but in my stable I do have the DBoys knockoff of the VFC KAC PDW, and there's absolutely nothing stopping anyone from installing MOSFETs, high speed gears, R-Hop, fat wires, and turning this thing into an absolute beast. Mine runs at 400fps at over 35rps reliably and is as accurate as I'd ever want it to be. I got it for a steal, and my team mates love to borrow it when their guns go down or they want to try something new.

On the other hand, I've gotten the impression that the high end brands tend to do the absolute minimum possible to qualify as high end product. G&P installs defective gears, KA puts in weak motors, VFC puts in crappy transparent pistons and cheesy "self-shimming" gears that are noisy as a banshee (seriously, is Taiwanese labour so expensive that they can't get a guy to take 10 minutes to shim these things normally on their way out of the workshop?), etc. And not a SINGLE one of these so-called high end brands put MOSFETs into their guns or even attempt to correct angle of engagement (AoE) out of the factory, and yet somehow magically we're supposed to believe they're LiPo-ready (KWA is the biggest offender here). Given that those two upgrades are the absolute core of "LiPo-readiness", what up with that?

TL;DR: JG, CYMA, and to a lesser extent DBoys deliver some amazing value and for a lot of players it's extremely easy to turn them guns that exceed the power and reliability of any stock high end gun.

Guys like cheap stuff.

That something looks the parts, has the right numbers/specs, is supposed to be compatible so it can be upgraded later...all for less than other options....that appeal is irresistable for many. I fall under that spell all the time (but usually don't end up keeping them for long...it's just an itch to scratch)

Even though I have some decent stuff...I still oogle/lust over the new releases from any manufacturer.

IMO...there's always the potential for a jewel in the rough to be found. Some "cheapo" guns are actually built quite decently (externals) and with just a little bit of work (internals) they can be champs.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with going with a "cheapo" "lowend" brand. It might work forever (or at least as long as you need it to)...or it might die right away (even some good guns do that too).

Just don't go into anything to do with airsoft expecting that it'll work perfectly. Expect that it won't...and work up from there.

People drive sunfires, others drive escalades, while some sit in their garage and work for years on their hemi-cuda......

to expand on this with 1 gun in particular

Kraken AK

I've seen guns go 1000's of rounds and guns go a 100 before dying.
yes they are plastic, but i've noticed quite a few fraken guns which started out as this 180$ plastic mystery

Every sport/hobby/pasttime will have those highly vocal douchebags who'll say stuff like "If you don't spend at least $1,00 on your gun, you're buying SHIT!". For them, money equals happiness. They're in the extreme minority, but because they're so vocal, it's easy to think they represent a larger percentage of the group.

I run an all-age club, and what we tell our players is to buy something that's affordable and reliable......I'll almost always suggest an Aftermath gun. For $100-$150, you can get a gun that you can't kill, except by physically damaging it. After a year or two, when they decide they love the game, are more educated about models, brands, etc, and want something a little better, then the Aftermath becomes their back-up gun. We have guys that have been using the same 'low-end' guns for 5 years, have never opened the gearbox, and they shoot like they came out of the box yesterday.

Some of the best players I've seen use the least expensive guns. They're in it for the game, and not the glory.

Hmm interesting point about VFCs self shimming gears. I was shooting my vfc side by side with my almost stock g&g and with proper shimming, the g&g sounds wayyy better. The vfc does have a whine to it. Maybe it's time for a new gearset next time I crack her open.

Would the modify drop-in shimless gearset cause the same noise? I liked the concept when I first seen it

I hate those self shimming VFC gearsets... they don't work well

airsoft is extremely interchangable if you know your way around the brands... meaning you can save a lot of money by buying the most robust 'cheap/low end' gun you can find and then doing the exact same to it what everyone does to their high end guns when they break.

This is airsoft. everything breaks. It's not a question of if, but when, even high end stuff.

It's not hard to put together a gun that can outperform a ptw or a vfc etc in terms of mechanics for a third of the price. Where some of the lesser brands may suffer is manufacturing tolerance or quality of the external model. You can ignore the internal mechanics, they are all relatively interchangeable between brands.

The balancing act when you do the 'low end' shopping is to find the highest quality externals with internals like the gearbox shell that is robust enough to handle dropping in stuff like a DSG gearset or a 13:1 speed gears with high power neo motors to go 40+ rounds a second. But even then, you can just buy say a lonex preassembled gearbox and drop it into a 100 boneyard gun frame and be at under 300$ for a well built gearbox that will last.

You don't see much of it in canada, the market grew slightly different here because of pricing... everything was stupid expensive until this year, so if a dboys or JG or cyma started at 300-400$ because someone had to upgrade it prior to import vs a vfc or G&P etc at 500-600$ It's not hard to justify spending the extra bit but hang out on airsoft mechanics (like maciekA and I do, and a few others) you will see some ingeniously cheap and crazy shit done to something like a Dboys or JG gun to make them crazy.

With prices being reasonable now, you're looking at 200-300$ for that dboys and still around 500 for that vfc... so for people who know what they're doing, that's potentially quite the savings. Still nowhere near what the americans can buy for 200$ but the options have opened up.




shimming is not hard. IF you don't like the vfc self shimming ones, the modify ones probably won't inspire any confidence either. Don't let someone else claim he can do for you what you know you can do correctly yourself. :P

No, they sound worse than VFC.
The biggest problem with that gearset is that you can't adjust the height of the setup at all. It drops in, and that's it. Pinion gear not meshing correctly with the bevel gear? Too bad.

plus you have to admit high-end in airsoft is still somewhat crappy.You get quality pot metal instead of crappy pot metal.

I have had an assortment of guns over the years, from high end custom builds (that I destroyed) to sub $200 guns (that I destroyed).

Honestly now, after getting a basic and growing understanding of what it takes to make an airsoft system accurate and reliable, I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt ......I have NO FUCKING IDEA.

It's a crap shoot, but the new cheaper guns are actually taking longer for me to destroy them, and are more accurate, in my opinion. But my $1400 Systema is my love gun, it works 100% of the time and is a nail driver.

Roll the dice bro. This sport is expensive because of the costs of gear and the cost of learning (READ: making mistakes) :D

Completely agree with the comments above, I've been playing in Canada since 89 Throughout the evolution of airsoft countless AEG/GBB/GBBR/Classic air etc have gone through my hands, to this day there are a few things I'm sure of in airsoft.

A) There are NO such thing as unbreakable, ultimate, uber leet airsoft, it's a fuckin toy they will break (eventually)
B) This sport over the years with the impulse buy, gears, new toys are freakin expensive, the thought of how much I've sunk in over the last 20yrs is sickening
C) Never believe the manufacturer, want realism?? buy a real gun, Want hitech toys?? buy a car (trust me it's cheaper) eventually the low end manufacturer will evolve, I still remember teh days when CA and G&P were teh low end manufacturers.
D) when it comes to AEG there are no such thing as cheap, eventually they'll even out same applies to PTW. it all falls down to which company have a better QC and player satisfaction in mind because when you break it down all AEG function the same, share the same parts, with the only difference in what you pay falls into the QC and external parts and toys materials ie. rails etc.

come back to me when your car tires cost in the neighborhood of 2000$ and their lifespan is measured in the number of times they've come up to operational temperature. Here's a hint... they last somewhere between 50 and 100 km.

That was my other hobby before airsoft. :p Guarantee you the 4 guns I've got will last longer than 4 sets of tires I use for lapping or autocross. :P

airsoft is one of the only things I know where buying "high end" still means upgrading some things...

When I buy a fender strat I dont want to have to upgrade the picksups or machineheads

"high end" to me, means as a stock item it should be better than the rest. So if Im going to have to open up the gearbox either way, then Im going to buy as cheap within reason as possible.

100km for tires used in auto cross is better than a $2K PTW failing after 7 mags (that's not even a day of gaming) btw i have about 7K worth of tires and rims sitting in a buddy garage waiting for my new car to arrive in January hoping that this time it wont get delayed again. The amount of money I dumped into airsoft over the years I could probably buy a tits up super car. either way both are wallet draining hobby to where it has no ends except that one will last a whole lot longer than the other, in fact this hobby is almost as bad as fishing when you tally the total in the end of the year.

I suppose, but a ptw failing that catastrophically can't be that common. 2k$ for a set of tires that last about an hour total worth of driving is a constant consumption of product. You can fix a ptw, you can't put more rubber on tires.

Also.. putting your car shiny side down on a lapping day would also be a bit more expensive than a whole season of airsoft, depending on your car. But boys and their toys... both hobbies are expensive.

A nice car will probably get you more pussy than an airsoft gun tho

hmmm.. you may be on to something.

Having $2K of cash in your hands gets you plenty too....but you still need good rubber













....I was refering to cheap airsoft and hopup rubbers you dirty pervs :)

I prefer the "higher end" stuff, because I'm mechanically ignorant. Everytime I buy a slightly lower end, but "good value" gun, I end up busting my ass for weeks trying to get it into gaming shape, or end up having someone else do it for me. I'm very bad at handling the guts of airsoft guns, so I prefer paying the extra bit of cash to make something perform out of the box. I've never, ever had a Marui fail on me. Despite their plastic construction, I've had one of my pistols fly out of my hand, roll down a hill, and bash against a rock. Nothing bit a small scuff on the slide. The metal generally isn't enough to convince me to buy the cheaper brands. And yes, when we compare sidearms at games, people do point out that they could buy 3 or 4 of their pistols for one of my customs. But almost no one agrees that their guns perform better. Therefore, I judge the quality of the gun on function out of the box, not the potential of the gun, unlike many of the more technologically-skilled members of this forum. Not that I wouldn't do what they're doing if I had the know-how, but I don't.

To use a baseball analagy,
There are guys in Cuba that use a stick and a rock cuz thats what they can afford, to play the game.
Guys get better gloves and bats and balls, if they stick with it as the equipment and skills get better and improve their game. All the little leagues and pick up games that are enjoying the game and sharpening their skills with mid range equipment, but know theres a level still to advance too.
The guys playing MLB do not use sticks and rocks anymore but they are definitly the top 10% of players. The Industry generates new Gear to stay ahead of their skill sets and keep them interested. The MLB players themselves can pick up a Stick and Stone in Cuba and knock that shit outta the park and into the Bay of Pigs.
Its not the Equipment you start with, but the Skills you finish with.

That statement is very false. For example I haven't changed anything in 2-43 years in my CYMA AKS74U except the spring. CYMA and JG can be very reliable guns just like any other brand.

And in comparison, every stock G&P gun I've seen has catastrophically failed within 1000 rounds.

Best tires money can buy are no doubts hankook evo 12 :) brand new shipped 255/35/19 for two is 630$.

I think that back in the day you had to get a higher end gun because the companies like cyma and jg were bad, past couple years theyve stepped their game up. The first real airsoft gun i bought was a cyma mp5 blowback and i freakin love it. Ive put minimal upgrades into it (new hop up rubber, and inner barrel) and that was after about 2 years of using it as my primary. ive never had a problem with it and its one of the best shooting guns ive ever owned and is the best performance gun i currently have. its a tank. i also have a dboys kac pdw, and it also performs great. the only problem is the hopup tends to break after a couple weeks. i changed it and its great again.

Agreed, they sound terrible, and there's no real way to prevent it aside from disassembling the gearset and re-shimming it within the frame structure. This is the biggest head-scratcher for me regarding the Modify Modular gearsets (anyone want my set?). They aren't self-shimming, yet often described as such.

The bottom line, hands down, is that if you want the best shimming you have to do it yourself, with normal gears that have normal shafts. Everything else sucks. It's not even hard, but it does require some finesse. The process is hugely helped with visual and audio feedback and rapid iteration. It also helps to complete your bevel gear solution and test the sound from that (with motor and trigger and battery all in) before moving on to the rest. I suspect maybe this is why we don't see ideal shimming in high end production guns; it would annihilate their margins. I could be wrong though.

edit: I suspect what we're seeing from VFC's self-shimmers is a somewhat failed attempt at achieving an ideal shim without the labour cost. Maybe they'll dump the idea. Perhaps someone could take their idea and improve on it to the point where it works, but I'm skeptical because those springs aren't very strong, and at the required tension to get an ideal shim you'd be adding unnecessary friction.

I can't imagine they would hold under any sort of load... those gears turn at pretty high rpm... torque just lifts the buggers out of the way.

Think about it... path of least resistance.. the piston spring and rig is far heavier a pull to move than a tiny little spring on the self shimming gear. As soon as any sort of load is put on the system, stuff is going to shift before it even gets to the main spring.

What I believe is that the cheaper brands sell more because they are cheaper. Not everyone is willing to dish out 500 + for a stock aeg. Especially if they are first time buyers and don't even know if they will like the sport.

As for my own personal experience. I don't mind buying a cheaper brand like cyma or whatever. To me I am just paying for the exterior body quality. And sometimes a cyma ak's metal body is good enough. Most of the internals in an aeg can be upgraded pretty cheaply regardless. To me the sport is more about having fun. And a 250 dollar cyma with 50 dollar upgrades can last just as long as any of the higher end guns.

Could you imagine if the world's best car engine could fit into any junky car and was cheaper than any car itself? Everyone would own this engine and drive shitty cars. Or at least that's my theory.

Here's a perspective from a 5+ year player and self gun tech.

Between my team and I, we've owned a good mix of brands over the years from JG/Cyma to TSD/SRC to Classic Army/Tokyo Marui. The big differnce in performance is not necessarily FPS or Mosfets but the consistency and accuracy that can be achieved through tight tolerances and better fit & finishes.

Here's a good example, I did a recent chrono reading on a stock JG and a stock Classic Army (both about 3 years old and well used). The JG had a deviation of 16fps over a 10 shot string. The Classic Army had a deviation of 4 fps over 10 shots. I have seen this same trend with other 'higher end' brands (tighter fit & finish of air seal parts & quality spring = more consistency).

There are three factors that significantly impact the decision:

1. Can you do your own upgrades/repairs? If so, fixes and upgrades can be performed relatively cheaply, marginalizing the risk and expense associated with brand reliability/performance out of box.

2. How often do you realistically expect to play? A person who games multiple times per month puts much more wear and tear on their equipment than a casual gamer (1 game per month or less). If you only expect to play 6 times a year, will you ever use a "chinese" brand to the point of failure? Possibly, but the potential is far less than with a weekend warrior.

3. What is your financial situation? How much do you have to spend and what is your personal opinion of "expensive" for a hobby? A sizable 'hobby purchase' is more substantial for someone with less disposable income and cost will most likely play a limiting factor for their next purchase.

One thing that you should absolutely NOT skimp on is the quality of battery. It is potentially the single largest thing that can negatively impact the performance of an AEG and in my experience, often neglected when people plan upgrades for their guns.

It's kind of like cars now a days. A Ford can be plenty reliable and get you from A to B. Will a German Sports Saloon out perform the Ford and feel more 'special' to you while doing it? Probably.

JG/CYMA/Dboys air leak comes from the nozzle, their piston to cylinder head seals very well. A $5 nozzle can easily fix the compression issues that comes with the "cheap" guns. While you're at it, you might as well reshim, adjust AOE and swisscheese this piston, install a MOSFET and maybe even a neodymium motor. This results in a true LiPo ready and reliable gun with amazing trigger response for much less a "high end" gun.

I wouldnt say those are low end guns. Chinese clones can be really good. you can either get a VFC 416 for 500$, or you can get a Dboys (VFC clone) for 200$ and spend 200$ on it and get a gun better then the VFC! and you can call it your own. a lot of aftermarket parts suck, but some can be really good. I would go with the Dboys any day of the week. stock, the VFC will be better. Not by a huge amount, but better. I personally recommend purchasing JG, CYMA and Dboys

I have a VFC and it hasn't failed once because I got rid of the auto shimming feature.

I replaced the springs that are suppose to be the auto shimming feature with a spacers then thin shims for final tuning and works great.

low end guns were popular purely due to price and ignorance.
When chinasoft first hit the market, it was a lot worse than it is now, and despite EVERYONE being told NOT to buy them, a ton of people did, and of course regretted it when their gun broke and nobody could/would fix it lol
Used to be the difference between a $200 kraken or a $800 G&P that needed new internals
Now it's $200 for a kraken, or $350 for a high end KA M4
Can't really argue the extra $150 for guaranteed compatibility & reliability

Problem with putting a good engine in a shit car is the same as putting a good mechbox in a shit gun. You can get it to work but it's a question of alignment. If things don't align properly you're going to have some big demon performance issues for what is now a $200 gun with a $400 mechbox

Of course, it doesn't help when a business is making you pay $800 for a gun that only cost them $300 to import lol

I have no time for DIY. So I stick to those with good reliability and fair performance right of the box. No matter it is a cheap or high end brand.

But it is very true that the high end brands have better fitting, alignment,etc which makes upgrades/maintainence have better results.

I thought the KA M4 was just a good entry level gun, I didn't know it was high end? I also wouldn't say its guaranteed reliability on those.

I've had a kraken for 2 years now as a back up, a good shim job and its never failed. I hear plenty of stories like mine. I bought the kraken used from an ECO team member, so its most likely been through over 50,000 bb's. To say buying a cheaper gun is ignorance, maybe makes sense a few years ago, but today I don't agree.

king arms has always made really solid externals.
G&P is noted as being high end, their metal bodies are tough as nails, but their internals are hit and miss.
CA was good back when it was the only choice for a metal bodied gun, but they're not fully TM spec, and their metal bodies are crap compared to G&P.

Any AEG that is fully TM spec, is a good aeg, because you at least know it can be made to shoot good.

Buying a cheaper gun isn't ignorant. But ignoring people that have HAD cheaper guns, and advice of dozens of collective years of gunsmithing, is completely ignorant.
Like when people ask what's a good charger, then buy a $12 wall plug, and later complain their batteries won't hold a charge lol

It also doesn't help that most people pushing the low end, have only ever owned low end guns. So they're not even really aware of what they're missing.
I've worked on and seen many low end guns on the field. In terms of reliability, ease to work on, and performance, you just can't compete with brand name.

I have this same argument with AEG's vs PTW's. You can get a good AEG, fully upgraded, to perform exactly like a PTW. And even have the electronics be more reliable than a PTW's.
But it's an extremely difficult task to tweak and build that AEG to the same level as a stock PTW. And if anything should break, or go out of place, it requires a VERY skilled gunsmith to maintain and service that AEG.
Whereas you can buy a stock PTW and it kicks ass out of the box.

You can get an echo1, or ARES, or STAR, or JG, or CYMA to perform like a high end AEG. But first, you need to luck out and get one of their non-lemon guns, then you need a skilled gunsmith to upgrade, tweak, and make that thing shoot right. And then you have to keep up on your maintenance to keep it shooting right.

I've done a few LMG full upgrades, and let me tell you, my G&P has never had an internal mechbox failure in 4 years and hundreds of thousands of rounds. Always shot at proper FPS, great range and good spread.
But it's incredibly difficult to reproduce those results on a plastic STAR MK46, or a CA249, or an echo1, or especially a TOP anything.

Damn this is a long winded post, but the point is, a solid base ensures less problems in the future.

Dude, I hugely respect a your posts on this forum, but with the highest level of all due respect and no offense intended, I have to say the above view is completely wrong.

It's my belief that this perception comes from partially from the fact that a huge number of people don't have any clue about AoE, sorbothane, and MOSFETs, but mostly from the fact that our community inexplicably clings to inaccurate myths: chief among them that gearboxes have souls that escape as soon as you fiddle with them... that there's some kind of magic involved in imparting spin on a BB that only certain people and/or companies can achieve... that there's more to the durability of gears than simple metallurgy and knowing where to buy your shit... etc.

Guys, it's under two dozen electro-mechanical parts and they're dead easy to understand.

The idea that it is extremely difficult to build durable AEGs that can fire ~30rps at 400fps weekend after weekend, through the dead of winter, with high-powered LiPos, good distances and decent accuracy and so on is just flat out inaccurate and unfair to knobs like me who are building them and doing just fine. It takes a few tries to get it right but it's not hard, in fact, it's fun and part of the whole airsoft experience. We owe it to new players and tinkerers alike to tell them the truth and kill these myths. This shit is pretty easy, and all it takes to build a solid tier 1 AEG is some basic *repeatable* skills, a reasonable budget, and a build->test/observe feedback loop to build a solid.

Seriously, take it from me -- I am the ultimate idiot in sheep's clothing. The fact that there are airsoft doctors on here with many years of experience who maintain this bizarre folklore of superior japanese machines that can't be matched with a few simple upgrades and techniques is more an unfortunate product of ingrained thinking and a lack of effort to use the Net and actually check out what other people are up to outside of our neighborhood than it is a law of the universe. Go out and get more data, and you will come to see the truth. This is why I always tell people who doubt this idea to go out there on the net or talk to players in other bigger player communities (USA, EU, etc) to see what those people are up to and what extremes they're pushing and what truths they've discovered by experimenting at the edge, en masse. We've got our heads in the sand (or snow) over here.

Like I said before, if I can do it, anyone can do it, cause I'm an idiot with limited time and resources.

There's no doubt about it, Systema creates impeccable machines of supreme beauty (that planetary gear is one of the wonders of the airsoft world), but practical ASC readers would be better served with helpful pointers on how to install R-Hops, choose the right piston, motor, and gears, and how to firm up their compression -- techniques that will take ALL AEGs far beyond stock and into tier 1 territory... from low-end CYMAs and JGs, to KAs and G&Ps and VFCs. If you start with a CYMA, power to ya.

That's theoretically true...and bullsh!t at the same time.

Not all that long ago I stopped gun doc'ing. It wasn't from lack of work...mostly loss of interest. I stopped the year after about $14000 worth of rifles passed over the bench....that's parts and labour, not the cost of the guns, in a single calendar year. The hobby wasn't a hobby anymore.

It's very possible to build good setups. I do it often (less so now). But to say its possible with anyone with anything is just plain wrong. I've taught guys how to work on mechboxes...more than a couple of dozen paid me to teach them. Some of the guys pick it up without batting an eye...others are confused to this day what end of the screwdriver to hold. Some just don't get it. And that's ok, mechanical things are just not for everyone....just like I couldnt understand any of my wife's quantum mechanics stuff back in univ.

I've seen...literally... dozens of botched repairs. More than a few boxes and bags handed over with bits of guns in them and confused "help me" looks.

It is possible to make a sh!t gun like a CYMA or a dboys work really well...it just takes more work, more parts and is more fiddly, with less certainty, than it does with a solid gun to start with. And at a base level, some of their parts are just so crooked, warped or offspec that they are junk. Add to that that certainly not everyone has the aptitude, nor the will, to fiddle with the fine tuning and it's very clear that what TC posted is very true.

There's some very good gun docs out there...many who are far more skilled than I am and more than a few who rarely post here...but to blanket extend out those capabilities to everyone is plain wrong.

Not meaning to insult anyone out there....but those who can't wrench on guns know who they are.

Good rebuttal, and fair. I guess what awakens the "listen you guys, pick up a god damned screw driver once in a while!" in me the most is the you-can't-kill-an-idea mythic proportion of the PTW and PTW-like ideas on this forum. My sense is that we're not as empirically-driven as other airsoft communities, more insular, exposed to far smaller amounts of hardware, and therefore susceptible to slightly oddball biases and quirky misconceptions. And I think one of those misconceptions is that there's something beyond reach when it comes to high performance durable AEGs on a budget, and that the more to it part is more a product of talent/finesse/branding/foreignness rather than simple determined investment of time along with sharing data.

I'll concede that it's probably not as dead simple as I make it out to be, but I will counter argue that there are probably tons of people here who could do pretty well.

all it takes is a bit of patience (okay.. a lot of patience in some cases) and the ability to remember righty tighty, lefty loosey, unless dealing with flash hiders, then it's anyone's guess. :P

I wouldn't consider myself a superstar in anything, much to the argument of a lot of people I know... I just spend some time and effort doing some critical thinking about the problem. Some logical trial and error and then experimentation and observation of the results. Not the result I wanted? try it again. and again... and again.

Sure, some people have inherent skill to be able to grasp a concept, or perceive a spatial problem in their mind, some do it better than others, some learn faster than others.

It's not that simple to pick up a screw driver and have at it in the gearbox.... but I am with maciek on this one.. it's not that difficult and mystic either.

Working on my own AEG's just feeds into my 20+ years of working on motorcycles, and disassembling other random mechanical things that were carelessly left out around me, from about 5 years of age onwards.

It's more about the intimidation factor, than the difficulty factor. It only took one gun-doc bill to get me to break open the gearbox on my own. It really wasn't that difficult, even the first time around.

You have to be focused, be able to do research on anything that you are unfamiliar with, observant on how things go together, and basicaly attentive to detail.. the rest comes with time and perhaps a mechanical fuck up or two. Once you get that out of the way, you are well on the way to being competent with the mechanics of these gear-boxes.

It ain't rocket science, folks. Everyone's a beginner once, but it is the ones that stick with it, that become competent, even experts - at anything.

The internet really helps these days for techs too. If you are a beginner, you can easily go to Youtube and learn the basics of gearboxes. Also, there are disassembly tutorials for guns as well, including full step to step processes for getting to the gearbox.

What I admire about your posts is that despite the fact that you haven't been around the longest on the forums, your open mindedness and objectivity is a breath of fresh air on this forum, while many of the veteran members are still ingrained in the old ways. There was a time when you'd get laughed at for recommending SHS gears and Element motors despite the fact that many high performance builds use such parts.

While I don't agree that anyone can work on a mechbox, I do agree that getting an aeg to perform better than a PTW is not that hard nor is it that expensive. Sure a $1600 PTW will perform great OOTB but it's only a matter of time before the motor fails and you have to spend $200+ on those special rewound motors. Amazing aeg motors can be had for around $25 and this motor issue alone is why I don't subscribe to to cult of PTW, despite their fancy electronics and accurate scale.

Thus, as long as there are guys that like to tinker and tune their aegs, "low end" guns will ALWAYS be popular since the potential for upgrades is practically endless.

The PTW is not only about the internals. It also has a very very high quality externals which is very close to real steel.

So it is a "whole" package which is much superior.

lol, if I had some spare cash I would put DSG and rhop a lancer m4 to demonstrate what you can do... but alas, I don't have about 200 to spare. The riot dsg gearset would be worth more than the gun lol.

A whole package is only as good as its weakest link. Most people probably don't need a ptw or care that a ptw is as close to real steel. Except of course, those who really need it to be a training system.

When you get shot in a game, do you care if it was a lancer or a ptw?

Probably not... you're probably thinking... "that bastard got me good."

anyways, this isn't a pissing contest about ptw vs the world.

Not everyone has the time or inclination to work on an AEG, I get it. For those there will always be gundocs who will gladly take their money and provide a good service.

For those who like to tinker and like to problem solve and push the envelope, you can buy a "pos" gun and turn it into something that will turn heads. I don't necessarily care if it's plastic either... I might if I'm not as tired at the end of the day since it doesn't weigh 10 pounds.

For the sake of gaming, all I care about is if it shoots as hard as I want it, as fast as I want it and as accurately as I want it. Ultimately it doesn't matter if it says WELL on the side of it or TM.

I've got no issues arguing technical detail, that's how our understanding of airsoft gets better lol

Having said what I said, the PTW certainly isn't the end all be all.
There are good PTW's, and there bad PTW's
I've shot both lol
It's EASIER to make a PTW shoot good, than it is to make an AEG shoot good.
And stock vs stock, you can't argue that the PTW isn't going to shoot better out of the box. But, you can fully upgrade an AEG and make it shoot just about as good for less than the cost of a PTW. Problem is you need the technical skill to make it happen.

My opinion on PTW's isn't biased, Mac can tell you I used to be a huge critic of PTWs LOL
But the thing that really changed my mind is joe shmoe. I can build an AEG that shoots freakin ridiculous. High ROF, excellent range and accuracy, guaranteed to last 3+ years of heavy abuse. But the guy paying me to work on his guns? Probably not. And some people just aren't mechanically inclined in the least.

PTW's have their problems like any other gun, they suffer from very expensive & flawed proprietary motors. Weak hop-up adjusters, sometimes an air nozzle may break, the stock mags are stupid expensive and very sensitive to fouling, expensive to fix, they're not water resistant out of the box, no LiPo monitoring support right on their boards, and they usually break when you javelin them into a concrete surface lol
But they have some serious advantages; the upper receiver cylinders, like ICS guns. Planetary gear mechboxes that reduce it to 1/3 normal size, once your motor is modded it's very reliable and very powerful, mosfet, optical control board, 3mm trigger pull, very solid body construction, thick walled inner barrels, a very accurate hop-up system similar to the M14's, and an air nozzle design that inherently makes full-auto fire significantly more accurate.

So do you NEED a PTW to be good? Hell no.
Does it give you an advantage on the field? Yes.
Is that advantage worth the extra $1200-$1600? Not for most people
And if you're just getting in, you're way better off getting a $200-$500 gun as opposed to dropping $2400 on a complete PTW package lol
I have noticed though, that a lot of communities that switched to PTWs just never got AEG's performing very well. Manitoba used to have a max range of like 120 feet. Once our gundocs started learning more and using better parts, and people started buying .28s, only took two years for everyone's range to get between 200-300ft

IMO, a well tuned AEG (with R-hop, computerized mosfet, torque motor, speed gears, etc) will give more advantage on the field than a PTW. The mosfet and torque, like the AWS Raptor, can bring hair trigger pulls to a standard AEG. R-hop can make a 400 FPS gun shoot about 270 feet. 13:1 gears and a torque motor can easily reach 30 RPS with a 11.1 LiPo. That's why I think a well tuned AEG is more advantageous on the field. 30 RPS with a instant trigger response and the capability to hit targets at +250 feet.

I hereby demand you come play with our group if you ever head down this way, I've gotta see this javelin action.

Understand very well how the dedicated DIY airsofters can upgrade the "internals" of an AEG to make it better than PTW.

How about it's externals and the much more precise measurements e.g. a much "thinner" and close to real steel hand grip, high grade metal and plastic parts, and some other real steel features e.g. the first AEG to introduce stop the shooting when the magazine is empty, and require you to push the release button before you can shoot again after you re-load, take real steel parts with little problem ?

These features may not be important or observed by many people, but really provide some good experience for those who go for realism and serious collectors.

Those that desire the most realism have already switched to GBBRs.

Yes. But it still does not mean low end AEG can be as good as PTW as a whole, both internally AND externally.

It is very personal, but I can say that I feel big difference when I use my PTW in games Vs the other AEG.