IR Lasers & DBAL's at games.
 

I've probably pissed most of you guys off as soon as you read the thread title, didn't I, lol? Well time to calm down, this isn't an ordinary copy pasta question.

How would you feel as a player or game host about a custom G&P DBAL that was retrofitted professionally by InvisibleSight with a Class I eye-safe 0.7mW IR laser? I'm sure it would need to be verified to be eye-safe before used at a game, but what do you guys feel about something like this? Are we more concerned about the intensity (and potential for eye damage) here or do we care more about brand and trustworthiness? I know that these two concerns go hand in hand, but suppose we ran tests on such an unit, and such an unit was confirmed to be eye-safe of 0.7mW?

Would the fact that it's much cheaper than a PEQ-2/4/15/17/41384/32464398 be relevant any more?

Grrrrrrrr!
Just kidding!

I'll give you a bit of feedback I've heard from a few users of InvisibleSight systems in the US. They suck. They are pretty much the equiv of a g&p DBAL, however the exception is you are paying x5 the cost. The guy putting these units together and slinging them on ebay has made quite a racket out of building an inferior product out of Airsoft junk, and managing to get suckers to purchase them. Probably something to do with it looking like a PEQ-15 and using a lot of exclamation marks to sell it. The broken english in the sales pitches should have been the big red flag, but some individuals on AR-15 wanted to give it a shot anyways.

There are many dumbed down civilian IR lasers coming out this year with legit FDA paperwork which are going to drive down market prices. They will be in and around the same price of the invisible sight, and there are rumours that they will be legally imported into Canada for civilian ownership.

I've had an InvisibleSight PEQ-15 in the past and it wasn't anything to write home about in terms of externals. Performance though, seemed to be decent. My old unit held zero with no issues on my GBBR's and even on real steel as reported by others in the US. I'm no expert, but the laser seemed nice and crisp - there wasn't a weird shape or anything. I only got rid of it because I couldn't use it (5mW) and the externals were crud. However, the externals on their fake DBAL are pretty close to the real thing, and judging from my previous experiences with their fake PEQ-15 - I can probably assume the same performance from the DBAL.

With that said, I'm waiting for the CIVL to be released. If it's importable, I may just grab that instead. If it isn't - how would you guys feel about a 0.7mW InvisibleSight fake at games?

Unless.. someone were to show me where I can legally get a LDI LAS/TAC2 on the cheap. :p

Lasers are not something to cheap out on, if your going to be firing off a laser at my face i want to know 100% its safe. Much like eyepro

How are you going to tell these modded ones from the non modded ones?

Fuck ppl just save your pennies and get something real or just get a sight you can aim with at night.

Basically it has always come down to this:

Is it FDA approved? If the answer is no, and the government has not signed off on it. It probably isn't safe and it shouldn't be used on players. Game hosts now require paperwork to be produced with the laser you are using, an excellent practice. Hell, we even have a chrony for lasers now to make sure.


I've seen some pretty crazy IR lasers being used at night games before, luckily none of them graced my eyes. This was back in the day before players really knew about them, and started buying up all the Hong Kong knockoffs. If guys are running potentially dangerous IR designators at a game, virtually every player I know that enjoys a good night fight wouldn't be interested in taking the risk.

I'm not sure how $600 is cheaping out. My question here is, does brand and price really matter if it can be tested and verified to be 0.7mW?

Let's keep the discussion civil. I'm not sure that your tone is warranted here.

Yep Chris, I see why there is a concern now, the FDA requirement is definitely legitimate. The only reason why I would prefer the DBAL over a legit LDI LAS/TAC2 or a CIVL is solely because of how it looks.

Find me a LAS/TAC2 please! :p

Well, if someone was using a laser thrown together and illegally imported in from Hong Kong on your face, would you be ok with it? ;)

Have a look at these:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubb...Number=3497953

Thanks for the link, but aren't even commercial FDA approved units subject to ITAR? I can't seem to find out where to pick one of these up without running into some sort of restriction.

I don't like people using any lasers at all and would ban them at games if it was my choice.

But that's just me.

Problem is all IR lasers designed for the purpose of weapon designation coming out of the US is ITAR.

Booo.

So basically what you have said, is either I smuggle something in or I suffer a huge disadvantage against you laser owners.

.. or I should just buy your damn PAQ-4C, right? LOL

:p

Pretty smooth eh? :p

Well, ITAR just means that you need an exporter, there are legitimate sellers that sell Class I IR lasers on CGN, but do charge more for it. Eg. LDI DBAL costs $1300 in Canada vs $781 in the US.

Yea? Well you're not from Chicago.
Just kidding Styrak.

It really is host/region dependent. For example, at QC games there is generally a laser ban in effect.
However I typically don't see any big 24hr, or overnight games happening there. The nightvision player crowd is big in Ontario, and this season we will probably have the highest amount of 20hr+ games ever posted in a single season where NVG's and IR lasers get utilized immensely.

There are also a number of Russian and East Bloc offerings that have Class 1 options. Most people don't like them cause "Ew Russian" among other reasons.

There isn't much NOD related stuff posted up on CGN for some reason (aside from Alpha Optics) and $1300 would be far past my budget. I'm a pretty cheap dude. I guess it stems from my Asian genetics. :p

Just as a word of advice to anyone reading: this the cheapest IR Laser unit From Tactical Imports - the Newcon LAM 10 - is a Class 3A unit and not Class 1, meaning it is not eye safe for Airsoft use.

I am all for using laser, however I have noticed a lot of users (both new and veteran) disregard courtesy and common sense when using them (aiming straight at the eyes specifically).

I get the whole obsession over head shots, "double tap" and what not, and I understand we do play a game where people shot each other, however there is no excuse to try and blind your opponent, even if they are eye-safe.

That is my only problem with people who use lasers, but other then that I do like having them in use during games to point out targets, locations, and objectives. The occasional lightsaber fights are very enjoyable as well.

When it comes to ir lasers if it hits someone in the face it is normally not intentional.

many times when you shoot a laser at someone you are roughly aiming at them then before you take your shot you turn on your laser and you will adjust.

This means i think im aiming at them, but i fire my laser and move it on target and then fire. sometimes it just so happens that its closer to there face then id like, when this happens i turn it off then aim down a readjust and try again only aiming lower.

As for red lasers, i cant comment, iv seen them used but i dont have one.

Hi,.
Do you have links or further info on the bolded text? If we had a reliable laser intensity measure device we may relax our stance on banning laser devices.

I'm no expert but I've had some experience with optical communications in the past. I have access to an optical light meter designed for use in telecom environments. It allows for measurement of light levels at specific wavelengths.

This is useful for getting an idea of how powerful a laser is. One of the wavelengths of light it can measure is 850nm which is around where most IR lasers are in the spectrum. It doesn't tell you however if the IR laser is calibrated right at 850nm so I would hesitate before using this technique to completely OK a laser for use. It could be calibrated for a different wavelength resulting in a lower power reading at 850nm which would not give an accurate indication of it's true power.

If I can get access to an optical spectrum analyzer then a more detailed report of what frequencies and strengths of light is being emitted from a specific laser diode would be possible. At that stage you could safely say a laser is OK to use. Sadly it's not so easy to get access to this type of gear as it's typically in excess of $10k or more for a spectrum analyzer.

Thanks for the info. When we had a meeting with Game planners and field owners 2 years ago and they asked the question "what about laser measuring devices" we couldn't find anything that was portable and/or cost effective. The post from C3SK made it seem like something like their was a new development or we missed something in our research.

There are Optical Power Meters available starting at $100.00 on Ebay.
All you need is one that comes equipped with the equivalent sensor to detect the lasers wavelength (Majority come with this)

Then just convert the dBm to mW and you will have the reading. With our tests they were right in line with the documentation supplied.

Hope that helps!

Not that it will be super cheap but Rampart International will be bringing in the class 1 units. You need to pay 300 for the state department paperwork. It will still be cheaper then a PEQ15

I'm really interested to see what they will be bringing in!

300 bucks isn't bad for something you typically would only need to buy once :)

I've got a $200 IR laser I use with my nvd, nobody complains because nobody but gish, seal, and myself have ever seen the beam on it lol
But treat it like a visible laser in cqb, just don't be a dick with it and nobody will have a problem with it.

Thats a horrible horrible attitude to take with other peoples eyes. No one complains but what in the off chance you fuck someones eye sight up now what? I am glad that you think since no one can see it its ok.

Yeah. Agreed. What model IR Laser are you shooting at people, ThunderCactus?

As long as its legit and its specified as a class 1 IR/red laser I'm perfectly ok with them at games. If its repro or eye unsafe keep that crap away from the players. Its pretty selfish and dangerous to jeopardize others eyesight just so you can use a cheap repro or over powered unsafe laser systems.

it's a class 3a 3mw IR

And some people have been shot in the eye with BBs, so you think we should stop shooting BBs at eachother? lol

Like I said, just don't be a dick with it. I don't spray 50 round bursts at people's faces, and I don't shine IR lasers all about when I don't need to. I've got it on a pressure switch so I flick it on to line up my shot for half a second and shoot. And I'm already using NVD and can see a person if I'm going to shoot at them.
It's not like I'm waiving around a continuous beam like some jackass lol

Besides, I've employed and seen employed some things that are FAR more dangerous than IR lasers at airsoft games with no complaints... At least when I was using dangerous stuff I explained the risk to everyone :p

just throwing this out there but eye protection gives you a line of defence against a stray BB where as a stray laser there is nothing to stop it from hitting someone in the eye if it comes across them. Not trying to be rude or say your not be responsible but its completely different scenarios.

You do know that the output power of that unit is enough to cause permanent eye damage within the time it takes you to say "Oh crap it's on his face" and move the laser, right? If the person on the receiving end just so happens to be looking through a magnified optic while you graze him you will be carving his retina like a turkey on Thanksgiving.

If you have had no complaints about your running of that device on the field I'm going to take a guess and say you haven't properly communicated the actual risks to the other players. Given your explanation I think it's safe to say that you haven't, as you don't seem to understand them yourself.

Since you guys have already banned lasers on the field in your minds, there's no use arguing. So give me an alternative to using an IR laser that is as accurate and useful to aim with my NVD.

No we have banned lasers that are not rated eye safe.

what you have however is NOT an eye safe laser.

So your options are fairly simple.

Go out and buy a FDA documented eye safe laser like an OTAL/ITAL or a REAL DBAL or get a REAL military aiming laser that has a low power mode like the PAQ4, PEQ2 or PEQ15.

or

Go out and buy a sight that has an NV setting and then set it up on your rifle so you can aim down the sights while using your NV. The Sightmark optics the BB Bastard sells are a good inexpensive way to start.

or

Mount the NV on your rifle and put a sight in front or behind it and use it like an NV scope.

If all of these options are too expensive for you, then you will have no choice but to save your pennys and wait. But using your current laser would NOT but an acceptable option.

Lasers are not banned in Southern Ontario. In fact many games look like a Star Wars reinactment. The difference is all the IR lasers are Class 1. A class one laser is eye safe under pretty much normal conditions. Hypothetically Viperfish could laze me for an hour and I would be fine. Not that I want him to because despite it being safe it just seems like a dumb thing to do.

There are a few people who still have more powerful units. They are being educated and we usually see them with a new, legitimate unit by the next game. There is always someone trying to sneak a G&P DBAL on the field because they don't know any better, or they think it's "okay as long as I" etc, which is the wrong attitude to have when it comes to other peoples safety.

If you can spend the money on NVG's save your pennies for propper aiming devices like the rest of us.

That's why Eotech's have a "NVG" setting.

This is actually a really good and informative thread.

If players out in Winnipeg didn't know that ThunderCactus was using a dangerous device on them.... they probably will know now.

I'm going to play devil's advocate on this one. Have you ever tried aiming through your Eotech with NODs on? It's facking impossible and you don't get a good picture. That's why I decided to get an IR laser.

With that being said, if you can afford a NOD, you can afford to a good IR laser or save up for one in no time :)

Actually, I would say there is a very good chance he does this on a regular basis lol. ;)

Saying what you said is like saying I bring a 1000fps gun to games but no one has complained yet. Just because your doing it doesn't make it right.

Just a question. How do we know if a laser has been officially deemed safe and as a Class 1 laser by the FDA? Is there a website that lists all approved models, or what?

The laser will typically have an information card or product manual with it, on the inside it has all Government regulated information as to what is in the device, and how it is regulated by FDA.

Sometimes the device will have a sticker directly on it which also has all required FDA information. If not, it will have a manufacturers part number which can be referenced inside the manual or on that information card.

ANSI Z136.1- Safe Use of lasers
http://www.lia.org/store/ANSI/106A

Thanks for the information and the link, but what about foreign made (professionally made) lasers such as Russian made stuff as suggested by Deltastone? More specifically: http://www.laserex.net/pdf/LS-700%20IR%20BROCHURE.pdf

I still can't seem to find viable sources for anything ITAR'ed, so if the laser (0.4mW) linked above is permissible, I'm all for it.

According to the website it uses the Australian standard, however I do not know if this standard is the same or equal to the north american standard (Most likely it isn't) Best thing to do is contact the FDA or Health Canada and see if you can legally import it.

You sound like some entitled teenager. It's not anyone's responsibility to provide you with an alternative, it's your responsibility to not endanger your fellow player's safety. The real question here is why do you feel you have the right to use something that can ruin someone's eyesight to which they have no defence.

Chris is right, I hope this brings awareness to your local players about what you're using.

This is quite funny, especially since you play with underage players Cactus.

Now I'm going to pose this as an option from my perspective as a G&P Dbal owner that didnt relize when he bought it that the laser is not rated safe. If i was to come to the game and use my Dbal in the iluminator finction with the focus being down to a minimal setting(looking like a laser) would that constitue disregard for the rules as I am not using the laser function? I am more than willing to submit myself to the testing with the device that C3SK has to vefiy intensity prior to use as I do not want to knowingly cause eye injury. Now the only issue in my doing the above that i see arising is the he said she said of wether or not I am on the laser setting as the illimunotor and designator are housed in the same box. If i was on the flipside of this I would alow this to happen with a seasoned and trustworth player that I/the community have played along side with in the past with no other issues.

The light meter I have is not currently available for rent but I don't mind bringing it out to games to help gauge what the output strength is of a device at 850nm wavelength.

As I explained in my previous post a light meter measuring a specific wavelength is not a reliable means of declaring a laser eye-safe. It does not tell you what the operating wavelength of the laser is so you might be getting an inaccurate reading. Before I would approve an untrusted laser for use I would test it first on a spectrum analyzer to see what the peak wavelenth is and how powerful the output is at that frequency.

For these DBAL clones for instance, can anyone answer the following questions:

Is the peak wavelength emitted by the laser 850nm?
What is the spectral width of the laser?

Think of a radio for instance, if you tune near the station you start picking up the signal but at a lower strength. As you tune to the exact center frequency of the station you see the full strength. This is a similar concept, the light meter is set for 850nm, but the laser's peak wavelength (or center frequency) could be 900nm, the light meter measuring at 850nm at this point will give a value that is below the actual output power of the 900nm laser. This value would be either larger or smaller depending on the spectral width of the laser.

-------------

In short, using light meters alone to measure the strength of an unknown laser is not sufficient evidence to deem the laser eye-safe.

Is the illuminator on the g&p dbal a defocused laser?

I spent some time with one and I'm willing to say that it's a defocused laser. It also focuses right back down to a dot that is brighter than the normal IR dot on the unit.

PEQ-15, PEQ-2, and other ATPIAL Illuminators are eye safe out past 27 meters in training mode, within 27 meters there is an ocular hazard risk. It's still a Class 3A, and requires direct contact with the eye for over two minutes to cause serious damage to the retina.

So, using the dbal's illuminator, focused. could be causing eye damage to your target. Defocused is going to be safer (depending on the range)

I just wouldn't chance it to be honest.
Just save up the money and buy the eye safe lightsabers :)
Then you don't need to worry about melting someone's retinas. lol


Edit, forgot to mention:
I remember at Shallow Lake 2, I was beamed in the face. I thought it was a designator, but a defocused beam would make much more sense considering I was able to see the focal point of the device. User obviously wasn't aiming at my face, but it probably ended up there since I hit the dirt and went prone. I was wearing my nods and thus my eyes were nice and protected, and of course my natural reaction was to look away.

There was no damage done to anything, so its all good. At that range I doubt it would have done anything, especially considering it was quite defocused.

This is pretty much what you're dealing with.
http://www.americanspecialops.com/im...s-laser-hr.jpg

The problem is that people are able to wear protective eyewear that are supposed to stop the BBs. We don't wear anything meant to keep IR lasers out of our eyes.

I've seen you around ASC long enough to know that you should know people don't like the attitude of "no one complained, so what's the problem?"
I can see your point of "I'm responsible with it", and I'd probably want to be doing the same. I'm not trying to attack you, but I'm surprised to see you post something like this.

Edit: Crap, there were two more pages of discussion I missed. Disregard this I suppose. =/

The bolded above is really important, so I'm going to answer this as it was passed over by everyone else.

It is NOT the game hosts' job to determine if an individual's equipment is safe for use.

It is also NOT ok to "clear" knock off equipment because a tool we use can determine it's output. It could be a fluke. It could be low based on unforeseen variables.

If the device does not have official documentation about eye safety that can be checked, it should not be shone at any human or animal.

We used the tool z0ng brought out to get an idea what these devices with documentation are outputting, and it fell within our expected range. Which is great. We can also measure the knock off kit. But it does not make the knock off kit safe if it falls within the ranges of safety. We do not know enough about the laser's to be screwing around with other people's eyes.

I cannot stress this enough. Please do not use fake lasers at games.

(Cico, this is not aimed at you, I know I sound a little course here, but I really need to bang this home, I see fake lasers all the time and I've been hit with green lasers... not a fun experience.)

http://shop.rampartcorp.com/category_s/1840.htm nuff said

Hold up hold up... Did you just link me to a site that is based in Canada and that may or may not have IR Lasers to sell me as a civilian?

Bean. I love you.

He did and they will.

Rampart posted this a few days ago on CGN. Basically it includes a $300 non-refundable paperwork fee that they charge with no guarantee that it'll be approved. Should the export application be declined, there goes your $300.

Risky and very pricey. Although Rampart isn't making any money on the $300 (it goes to the US Gov't), I'm not sure I'm convinced. :(

I would say they wouldn't even offer it unless DoD / DHS / whatever is cool with it. As long as you don't really have a pretty prejudice-y last name or are on some sort of denied persons list I would expect you to clear the paperwork?

Yeah, it's still a risk... But if the US Government was going to deny every application why would a company even offer it?

For the lucky few of us PEQ-15 users out there...

Depending upon who's data sheet you read, the L3/Insight ATPIAL AN/PEQ-15's IR-lo setting is either 0.7 mW or 0.6 mW which means it would be considered Class 1, or on the very low end of Class 3a. I've seen it listed both ways on technical data sheets so it's that close. Either way however, the low-power lockout ensures a real-deal PEQ-15 IR laser remains in this regime at all times and is considered eye-safe under normal circumstances. (ie. Normal means avoiding prolonged continuous direct exposure...key words being "prolonged", "continuous" and "direct")

For everyone else...

To use anything else but a stamped/certified real-deal Class 1 or 3a laser emitter (see Bean's post above) means you will be using it alone in the privacy of your own home and not on any airsoft field. Though I don't speak for game hosts, I would hope that if caught, failure to comply with this necessary safety measure would grant you an immediate and indefinite ejection/ban from games, a public shaming here on ASC, and possibly further sanction. Eye safety is serious $hit people so give it the respect it deserves!

Now save your pesos and go buy from Rampart and be safe...:D


'Fly

Illuminator is a Class 3a, Low Aim is Class 1
Class 1 is viewable under any circumstance with the naked eye, even magnified direct exposure. ;)

So... I have an Element PEQ16A replica. It has an IR and visible laser function, are those eye safe?

Alright. As it looks like people are reading the thread yet not understanding it... I'll say it again: If it's not real or verifiable that it is eye safe... It's not.

If you have to ask, the answer is no.

NO. Unless it is stamped/certified with available documentation attesting to its conformance to current laser classification standards - which none of the HK ones do - then it's merely an unsafe toy. There's several reasons why real firearms laser emitters are so expensive, eye safety being one of them. IF your laser emitter is not a real steel class 1 or class 3a firearms variety, leave it at home.

nuff said.

'Fly

So the sticker on it that says <5mw is just for show?

Ultimate test! (DO NOT ACTUALLY DO THIS, SARCASM ALERT)
1. Set the laser up on a table and turn it on.
2. Sit down in front of the laser so that it's going into your eye. (Do this maybe for about an hour)
3. If you do not go blind, it is eye safe.

4. To check if you went blind, clasp one hand over your left eye, and focus on the dot in the picture below. Repeat with your right eye. If deformations/vanishing lines appear while focused on the dot in the middle you have damaged your retina.
http://www.retinahealthcenter.com/images/Grid.jpg


5. If you can't see the picture, or anything for that matter, you are blind and have now verified that your laser device is too dangerous to be used at airsoft games. However know that through your testing you saved the eyes of hundreds of other players. You should be proud of that.





Or, just get a Class 1 eye safe laser that has regulated documentation supplied with it.

Then you will know for sure if the device you are using is actually safe to use.

TNVC lists the PEQ-15 IR-low as 0.6 mW / C3a but doesn't distinguish between the illuminator and the pointer...go figure. Insight wanted my contact info before sending tech data but I eventually found a Morovision PDF which does provide more detail and you are absolutely correct. IR-low laser is Class 1 and IR-low illuminator is Class 3a.

Eye-safe provided you have the lock-out engaged, which I do at all times. :D

L8R

Actually, Rampart does not guarantee anything whatsoever. The only thing they have commented on is that they tested this method with a customer once and it worked out for them. They are not sure what the approval process involves and what criteria is required for an approval. They are only offering it because there is significant demand from their customers.

Not only that, but it will take 6-12 weeks for the paperwork to be processed if successful. I'm not sure I would be too confident in putting down a $300 fee and not know whether or not I'll get anything in return.

The whole process seems really risky, expensive, and timely. Unfortunately, it's starting to look like the only method available at the moment. :(

I never trust TNVC's posted data as it varies from source to source. The best information is actually provided in the Insight ATPIAL manual/safety information card. This card lists the Ocular Hazard levels dependent on various primary factors such as:

1. Range to the devices beam
2. magnification
3. Output power

Which I am always happy to see that Class 1's fall under zero ocular hazard. :)

YES. So are all the other "realistic looking" trademarks and lettering on airsoft "toys" coming out of HK. That's why we love them so much because they look the part right?

Barring any unfortunate and often hysterical screw-ups in English translation, these so-called labels are realistic enough forgeries to fool pretty much everyone but they're not worth the sticky paper they're printed on. If an HK-based manufacturer actually had to go through the detailed process required to certify the laser to US-FDA specifications (Health Canada uses same criteria) as do the real deal manufacturers, they wouldn't be nearly as cheap as they are now for you to buy off the internet or elsewhere.

As said earlier by many including me, if you have to ask - origin = Asia - then it's not safe and should not be permitted for airsoft, particularly true for green and IR lasers.

Hope that's enough to answer your questions?


'Fly

Mind shooting me a photocopy of said card or manual? Mine didn't arrive with one. ;)

Thanks for the information. I know a guy who knows some guys, so I'll see what I can do to get it tested.

Beamshot NightStalker and Lasermax has some class 1 IR stuffs. With paperwork/documentation, are they good to bring to game?

The LaserMax UNI-IR is weird.

It is advertised everywhere as a Class 1 IR laser, but the specifications everywhere notes that it's a 5mW 653nm (visible red) laser for some reason. I'm sure its just a case of broken telephone - but it should be fine to game (as long as it's actually Class 1).

Never said there was a guarantee. I just said I seriously doubt a reputable retailer would offer a product that has a 100% failure rate and at significant cost.

A civilian has been approved to own a Class 1 laser. That means the option is on the table. Are you on some sort of No Fly list? Is your name bin Laden? Did you say Blackbriar over the telephone? Probably not a good idea to even try.

What are you debating exactly?

No one said there was a 100% failure rate here. All I said was that its really risky, and no one knows what is involved in the approval process - and that this included Rampart themselves. They are just as clueless as we are, except that they had a single instance where a request has gone through. ITAR is serious business to the US Government, and IMO, I'm not sure its as straightforward as just paying a (relatively) measly $300 for their most valued military technologies.

My posts are clear in their intent and what they are "debating." I have said in both posts there is risk. That risk directly correlates to whether or not you are on some sort of hidden list.

I'll be taking it to PM's as to not clutter the thread.

So are there any affordable lasers that are also eye safe

Sorry about the kinda necro but I don't want to start a new thread

Why even bother with lasers. Seriously. My eyes are literally my livelihood as far as the air force is concerned. I lose eyesight, I lose job. At the average milsim game, I'd say about 90% of players do not have any sort of NVD (except flashlights). Of the 10% that do, some of them are using older tech NVD like old russian stuff, active NVD, and handheld units. So if you own any AN/PVS series NVG, you already are at a significant, clear advantage over a considerable number of players. If aiming is that much of an issue: get closer, use tracers, get a better sight, learn to use iron sights, use judo, or find any number of solutions that do not involve expensive, potentially dangerous lasers.

It's an issue of enforcement. Like FPS limits, you can chrony people but ultimately there are ways to have a hot gun (ask yourself how often a host uses THEIR bbs and ensures the hop up is off, and what about that hot gun in buddy's car he gets after chronied?). At least FPS though is easily tested. With lasers, you would have to show documentation and know that each person has a laser and you have no test. If someone wants to use a cheaper, unsafe laser: they may decide not to mention it (after all its easy to hide and not noticeable unless you have NVGs). The laser might also be a knockoff that doesn't actually meet the specified standards.

Plus there is the issue of player consent. I have consented to have you fire bbs at me, that is why I am playing airsoft. I have a reasonable expectation of that. I did not consent to have you fire powerful lasers at me, even if there is a safe level. There is a safe level of radiation in X-rays too but I don't want you firing an x-ray machine into my thyroid all day either. Again my opinion, but its airsoft for fucks sake.. you have NVGs, you already basically have cheat codes on, cool it with the advantages.

McKee I understand your stance on the matter. You bring up valid points.

One of the things that is becoming more and more common at games is the player regulation regarding night vision and lasers. Alot of the more educated players who have had Night Vision tend to touch base with the players who don't. I have seen a few times where someone pulled another player aside because their laser seemed just a bit too bright, and found out it was a G&P DBAL. In pretty much every one of those cases the offending players didn't know any better.

The issue needs to be addressed by game hosts more diligently. For Hornet I've went (as some might suggest) a little far in requiring all players register every device that contains a laser. Element PEQ-16 where you are using only the Flashlight? Come see me before the game. Real PEQ-Whatever? It's in the book now. A number of games say they will be preforming spot chronies of players, but never do. I will actively be running the field looking at peoples guns, checking their lasers and referring to the registry. I see someone use a laser and I find they didn't register it? They are sent home immediately. This much will be made clear during the safety brief, and I've already touched on it in the rules post.

The issue is that there are a number of hosts that don't know about the dangers that some of these lasers pose, or some don't even know they exist/are being fielded. This is as much as it is an education effort for these hosts to make them aware of the situation. But it's like you said, people will bring shit onto the field without consent. Is it right? No. It should be the hosts job to make sure everything that is on the field is safe. Failing that, it becomes the players responsibility to inform the host of the situation.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a .7mw laser. The issue is someone thinking they know better and bringing some Russian IR Illuminator laser focused down to a dot onto the field thinking it's fine. It needs to be an education effort on the players part. A large percentage of the time the players learn, understand, and buy something better(read: safe). The ones that don't are going to be told to GTFO and won't be welcome at any decent game.

The sad thing is they might go somewhere else and injure someone anyways :/

I'm with McKee. Lasers should be banned at games. Not just IR, all lasers. Why? Simple - I have been lased in the eyes too many times at too many different games over the years.

You can keep your fancy nvgs, but fuck off with the lasers. They're MY eyes.

I don't care that some of the ASC population are responsible laser wielders, there are ten times more irresponsible/ignorant players. And you can't fix stupid. Especially not here.

It's a safety issue. The risks outweigh any benefit. Ban them.

Finally, people who share my opinion.

As well as the concerns about eyes there is zero need for a LTD or LAM at an airsoft game, you're engaging targets at 50-100 feet in the best of conditions. The risks far outweigh the benefit of them, keeping in mind, the benefits are nothing more than "cool factor".

In regards to "responsible" users, you're using military technology, none of you are trained to use it. Sure, you might try aim low, but there is always going to be accidents or occasions where you pan the laser and wind up hitting someone in the face. I'm glad having a laser lets you fulfill your inner desire to play out your Task Force Daisychain fantasies, but leave them at home.

@ Deltastone

I agree with your points. An education effort does need to be made, and there is an onus on the player to ensure safety. To be perfectly frank I would be OK with lasers if there was a fool-proof way to guarantee that every laser device on a field was safe. However, conditions in airsoft are never perfect. Even the best host with an intimate knowledge of laser tech cannot be everywhere at once. Even if he was, as I said, even if you recognize a device to be a AN/PVS xxx which is safe, it may be a knockoff that doesn't actually meet the standards (some knockoff tech is pretty convincing), or it may have different power settings, or someone may hide it from a host, etc. There is just no fool-proof way to guarantee safety. As far as FPS is concerned we can spot chrony and what not, and thats great. But at the end of the day if some cock-knocker shoots me point blank with a hot gun (which has happened), my bloody welts will heal in a few days. You can't say the same for eyesight.

I trust a guy like c3sk or bean with a laser. Chris and Ryan know their tech, I know them to be trustworthy, and more importantly I know where they live. It's the random dude that shows up to a game that I've never seen before with no apparent ASC handle that doesn't know the game rules, can't even manage to wear the right camo, and hardly speaks an official language. That guy can fire a fucking death star laser into my retina and disappear into anonymity without me even knowing about it. The only 100% way to guarantee safety is no lasers at all (and even then someone can bring a laser, as I said the host can't be everywhere).

I'm not sure if you understand how lasers are employed in urban areas if don't consider that to be a valid use of one both in the military and in airsoft. More often then not you are deploying a laser in those situations in real life.

As for the argument I can see both sides of the fence. At Rhino 2 one of the tan players decided to continually hit me in the eyes with his laser even as I was screaming at him to sort his shit out. I have also seen many lasers in games where the rules say dont bring a fucking laser. Its much like a hot gun or a guy using a thunder b.

As Alex says there are certain people I would trust with a laser, who know what they are using and know the safety precautions. There are also a lot of airsofters I wouldn't trust with a whistle.

Even if things are banned people are still retards and will try and circumvent the rules. I think we should just euthanize stupid players :P.

If lasers are banned at a game I am completely cool with that same as if they are allowed to continue. I have no issues walking over and sorting people out. Lasers I see more of something you would see more in a small game where everyone knows each other. Big games with 250 people can be a cluster fuck with regards to safety being ingored.

I spent $4400 dollars on my eyes which was much more then I paid for my laser. My eyes cant be replaced.

I knew you were a robit.

I got the better one. My eyes wont liquify if I pull mad g's. You never know how fast you can get an office chair going.

In all seriousness lasers to me are a lot like a bolt action firing 500+ fps. If the user is responsible and the unit is safe I am fine with it. However its hard to enforce with people using laser boxes as battery cases etc.

... Which is exactly why all lasers should be banned at games.

I understand exactly how they are employed in reality and training, I have also employed them during training. If this discussion were about the use of lasers during training or operations in a real setting, I wouldn't be chiming in here, but it's not. The difference here is we're throwing 6mm BBs at each other, at a relatively low FPS, supposedly in the name of nothing more than fun. We are not conducting a military operation that requires military technology and we are not trying to put a target down permanently. If you could indicate a legitimate, life or death benefit of these devices for airsoft, not the military, go for it, otherwise they are nothing more than an elitist toy with inherent safety issues.

I also spend $4000 on my eyes, I have no way to guarantee people aren't lazing me with their lasers as I can't see them. Unlike McKee, I don't trust a single person with these devices, none of them have received training on these things, if we're lucky, they MIGHT have glanced in the direction of the manual at some point. Even if they are "responsible", there's nothing stopping them from lazing people unknowingly or by accident.

While I 100% agree, it won't happen, those who have the toys are the ones everyone listens to. They have the money and the toys, so obviously they know more. We all know who they are, and I think we can all agree, their opinions will probably be listened to more than our because they're the ASC "cool kids"

Now to play the devils advocate how do you feel about the banning real steel guns because some people cant act responsibly? Same logic you could get shot so if we get rid of them all by your theory your now safer.

Sadly not everything is absolute.

Not really a fair comparison though Ryan. In no circumstance are you going to be shooting real steel at anyone unless you are trying to kill them. Their legal purpose is to shoot targets and animals, and are never to be even aimed at a person. Lasers, as far as airsoft is concerned, have the sole purpose of shooting directly at a person.

I am a trained CF soldier and have earned my marksman badge. I have been proven responsible and competent with a rifle. Would you trust me to shoot an apple off the top of your head with live ammunition? If people routinely were shooting apples off each others head then I would argue yes, by banning real steel people are safer.

Fair assessment however I was referencing the ban everything culture. We are wrapping the world in a protective mattress and stupid people are living longer creating stupid children. Should we ban tables because Rob cleaved a chunk out of his leg? Or running because Permal slipped on paintball goop and crashed into the wall.

We don't blame the fork for a private eating to much cheese cake at the mess and getting fat?

As I said before I am up for either because really it doesn't matter to me. Lasers if used appropriately allow for picking your shot easier providing less spray and pray at night. I have taken shots using a laser where I might not have hit where I wanted otherwise. Unlike some people I dont like to shoot people in the face with a laser or a bb.

It does have to be made very very very clear though for night games if they are allowed and the consequences. We play a game on honor rules and hopefully the players can be relied upon to follow the other rules not just calling their hits.

Perhaps we should introduce as a community, the standard usage of laser safe googles along with the current ballistic requirement?

We already protect our own eyes from impact, why not take the extra step and get laser safe goggles? We are all grown adults here. The protection of your eyes should be your own responsibility. With the current standards in place, no one is going to sympathize for you if your eye gets shot out because you cheaped out and bought $2 repro eyepro. It shouldn't be any different with lasers with the potential of stupid people sneaking on unsafe lasers.

They are your eyes, and they should be your responsibility to protect them. You shouldn't delegate this task to the person firing the laser at you. Although, this all only applies if laser safe lenses work the way I imagine them to work.

Thank goodness for class 1 eye safe lasers.

FYI

http://ehs.uky.edu/radiation/laser_fs.html

Other useful links:

http://www.rli.com/resources/article...ification.aspx

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_safety

This!!!!#$%#$

Not ban this, ban that, ban everything. Ban lasers, because they serve no legitimate WORTHWHILE purpose in airsoft. They are too dangerous, and there is too much of a grey area in what is safe and what is not. Joe Average Airsofters has NO IDEA if their device is safe enough. As for your "class 1 eye safe lasers", scroll back a few pages and you'll see some uncertainty there too.

Short of wearing a welding mask, there is nothing *I* can do to enhance my safety in the matter.

We'd be better off not having them at all. It's just not worth the risk.

(this coming from a guy that has a few deathstar retina destroying green laser PEQ-15s)

The same could be said about field vehicles being used at games. They have the capability to cause injury or death if an accident were to occur. Yet we have all used them at games time and time again, and to this very date they are still being used at Airsoft games despite the obvious risks. Would I say to ban them? No way, they are fun as hell, and really add to the atmospherics of gameplay. However if the objective is to eliminate the absolute possibility of bodily harm, then quite a lot of "fun" things would need to be removed based on that variable alone. :)

I think the best policy would be, that if you are uncomfortable with something being used at a game, exercise your right to voice your opinion, and simply do not attend to stay clear of it.



Class 1 rated lasers are black and white. As black and white as the import documents required for them to enter our country under the codes provided by Health Canada. They are the safest of all lasers, the ones that can't cause bodily harm. There is no ambiguity there.

Horto, I totally sympathize with yours and everyone else's concerns but I think that provided a well-conceived policy with extremely harsh penalties for violators is brought forth and understood by all, perhaps there may be some "wiggle room" on the subject...??

Ultimately, if the game organizer wants his or her game to be sans lasers, well dems da rules so remove your toy already or do not attend. Simple logic there.

BUT...

There may be other game hosts who recognize that with proper oversight, lasers can add an additional dimension of realism to the game. I think this has been touched on already or at least slightly grazed but...why not put the onus on the person bringing the laser to clear it with the game org. prior to taking it onto the field? For the same reasons that guns are checked, goggles are checked (or should be), why not ensure that no lasers are allowed unless the game organizer has personally checked each one and approved their use? IF there's any shred of doubt as to the authenticity/origin/safety rating of the device, then the responsible thing to do is for the organizer to deny the laser...period and no arguments from the player either - game control has final word...end of story. Anyone caught on the field with an unchecked/unapproved laser is immediately ejected with a permanent ban plus a name/shame (or ban) here on ASC.

For IR, Class 1 is pretty much it, anything else is fuhggetaboutit. For red visible, Class 1 would also be preferred but up to Class II - your natural blink reflex will prevent injury - should be permissible as it is considered eye-safe unless direct in-eye exposure is prolonged. For green visible, I would recommend blanket denial as they are more often Class 3b (not eye-safe) and for the devices using "offshore" green laser diodes, there's far too much unknown about the amount of IR leakage to be even remotely comfortable with them. In the case of red/IR, the very best way to ensure only devices meeting the above limits are permitted would be to first restrict anything that isn't manufactured by a reputable North American source (LDI, Insight, Streamlight, Crimson Trace, etc.). Beyond this, documentation should be provided by the user upon request proving the authenticity and safety (class ratings) of said laser otherwise, it's coming off the gun in full view of the game organizer before the player takes the field.

That said, it still does not relieve a laser user from employing some common sense with their device. If someone is acting like a jackass by constantly and continuously lasing faces, just like any other non-desirable activity (not calling hits, other cheating) would be brought to game control's attention, so should flagrant abuse of a laser device, and permission to use it summarily and permanently revoked.

Interesting topic and it has obviously provoked many responses and just as many different viewpoints. IMHO, it is ultimately up to the discretion of the game organizers to police this at their games as they see fit. What I have proposed above is merely a suggestion for some form of guideline or policy for those game hosts and players wishing to use lasers. It is by no means a "fait accompli" because it needs more refinement and tweaking, but I believe it speaks to both sides of the debate in a fair and equitable manner?


/Fly

Another issue to consider if lasers are allowed to be used at a game:

We all try to avoid lazing above the neck (or at least I hope we all do), but what if the target is only showing their face through a window? The accepted practice is to just take the (gun) shot, but what about targeting with your eye-safe laser? Is it fine to do so in that case since your laser is eye-safe, or do you wait for another body part to be exposed just to be extra safe?

aim next to his face. the tree he's behind, the side of the window he's poking out of, etc.

Rampart is the only company bringing them in. It takes a 300 dollar license from the states per laser. Its included in their price. Honestly its not hard though if you didnt buy a LDI, Insight, Laser Max or other reputable class 1 laser from a proper retailer dont bring it to the game. Unless your 110% sure its eye safe and sold and manufactured and tested with proper specs. If you have to ask if its ok chances are its not. If its made in China for airsofters forget using it.


Also Gato you seem to have flip flopped on this because at one time you planned to get one and talked about it a lot.