nvg for indoor cqb?
 

Hi Guys,
I need your help on NVG, I have noticed the indoor area I play has those infrared cameras installed, and they host low/no light games every once in a while, I really dont want to spend 3K+ for a gen 3 which I will probably only use 20 minutes/month, do you guys think a good Gen1 or Gen2 would be enough? what are your recommendations?


thanks

Gen 1 is useless, you're better off with a flashlight
Gen 2 is next to useless, you're better off saving your money

so go gen3 or go home? I thought some of the Gen2+ are decent, and since there will be plenty of infrared around, gen2s are still worthless?

Top end Gen 2 (gen 2 +) will run anywhere from $2200 - $5000 and are on par with lower end gen 3 according to this thread

another thread here

If you plan on using it for indoors you will need a gen 3 unit to not need IR illumination. Even top end gen 2+ units will need IR illumination indoors as they lack the gain of a gen 3 unit. I personally own an XR-5 tube from photonis which is an extremely high end gen 2+ tube and when using it indoors i'm almost better off using natural night vision since its gain is about half that of a good gen 3 monocular.

Cheap Gen 2 will give you a bit of an edge over guys that are clueless with flashlight use and do not run anything equivalent or better, unless you get a high end Gen 2 which will end up costing almost as much as Gen 3.

Unless you have 3k+, just use a flashlight.

Top end Gen 2 technology competes directly with Gen 3. Generation denotes the architecture of the tube, not the spec/performance of the tube. If that was the case, Filmless tubes would be like Gen 8.
For example: Photonis 4G tubes use Gen 2 architecture, however they directly compete with high end Gen 3 tubes.

Gen 2 will do you just fine in Airsoft.. especially more modern Gen 2 type devices which will give you more bang for your buck. Due to Canada's current poor economic state however, and the fact that we don't really manufacturer Night vision equipment domestically.. you will be paying an extremely high premium right now for something made elsewhere. Considering you stated that you don't want to spend a lot of money on a device you will probably only use for 20 minutes a month, it sounds like you have already thought this through and could easily just get by with a very reliable weapon light. Hope that helps.

I didn't bother mentioning Gen 1 because it is so beyond deprecated that it is now completely useless.

Case and Point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pyd-LXPTUg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ2zZhiWdds

Those 4G's are hella' expensive...

Yea, any high end tube is going to be super expensive, and depending on the individual it may be cost prohibitive. A very good friend of mine runs a pair of extremely early omni 3/4 "beater" night vision tubes for his Bino set, and he absolutely slays in Airsoft against folk with ridiculously high spec tubes. You can very easily get into the game at a low price entry point and have fun being able to Airsoft in the dark without a flash light.

Sadly this is by far the worst time to invest in NVG's for the reasons already stated. The best time being when our dollar was on par with EURO/USD.

thank you guys so much for the enlightenment.
i forgot to mention that the field has IR illumination from those security cameras, will gen 2 pick those IR up? or will I need separate light source?

Those IR cameras are REALLY bright. Each one is like a 200watt bulb under NV.
Gen2 will be FINE for shooting people 40ft away in a very well IR illuminated area. I've done it myself, in fact. And you don't even need good gen2, a low to mid range $1200-$1500 model would work great.

gen1 is hard to walk around with, even in a well illuminated environment. And their peak spectrum just barely reaches into the IR range, so some IR lights won't give you very much illumination at all.
gen3 is greatly overkill and overall non-advantageous over gen2 indoors. In areas where they don't have cameras it's going to be pitch black if they don't have any lights on. Gen3 isn't going to be any advantage over gen2 when there's 0 light to amplify, and so both units are going to need to use an IR light anyway. The IR light from the cameras will create shadows, and both gens will have trouble seeing into shadows.

We used to run games like this at force on force up in edmonton. They'd leave 1 light on in the middle, and everything else was either pitch black or lit up by IR cameras. Gen3 really had 0 advantage over gen2 when you're using it in an artificially illuminated CQB environment to shoot people 10-50ft away.
Gen3 is a huge advantage over gen2 when you're OUTSIDE and have to make full use of whatever fleeting amount of IR light is still available. But when the IR light is in plentiful supply, you really don't need to spend the extra $2000 to help see it.

The higher end models of either gen2 or gen3 will have higher photosensitivity, making better and broader use of the light spectrum, and higher resolution and higher signal to noise ratios, which will produce a more clear and crisp image. Both of those things help a lot outside when you're trying to see past 100ft in the dead of night, but indoors it's really just for bragging rights.

Will definitely pick those up. Should be more than enough IR lighting there.
You may need a separate light source when going into a structure on that field, which can just be a weapon light, white light based + a monocular would probably give you the best transition results.

gen 1 is totaly useless, it fishbowls, and has such low sensitivity, that depending on the wavelength the cameras are giving off you might not even be able to see it. Oddly enough for your purposes the AABB pvs-14 thingy that is sold by lots of airsoft places for around 400$ would actually work rather well because it uses the exact same principle that those cameras use to work, BUT if you plan to use your NV outside at all, you "have to" go gen 2 or 3.

Saying gen 2 is useless is a bit of an overstatement, is it anywhere near as good as gen 3? not a chance BUT it is still more then adequate for your average airsofter, although because of the quantity of high end gen 3 units in ontario you will be outclassed, in a NV to NV battle. The newer gen 2 units from photonis are actually being produced with higher minimum specs then gen 3 units HOWEVER, the major difference in gen 2 and 3 is in photocathode sensitivity. gen 3 can produce a much much brighter image with darker skis because the gallium arsenide used in the photocathod responds MUCH better to longer wavelengths of light. Basicly what this boils down to, is with gen 3 youll still be able to have a bright image that may or may not be noisy depending on your SNR in the pitch black and see stuff, with gen 2 youll have a very dark image that may or may not be noisy depending on your SNR, and this results in it being significantly harder to use but it is still useable, and can be easily used if you use an IR weapon light, gives your position away to other gen 2/3 users when you flash it, but they can probably see you anyway so lol.

The hardest thing for people to understand about gen 2 vs gen 3 is that the major difference lies in sensitivity not in gain, if both tubes have say 30 000 gain, and are looking at a scene at say 11pm that is refracting 10% visible light, 70% 700-850nm light 10% 850-950nm light and 20% heat both units will produce a similar image, however say we observe the same scene at 2 am, there is no moon, just some star light, the same scene will have say 5% visible light 20% 700-850nm light and 70% 850-950nm light and the rest of the EMR being heat, the gen 3 will have a massivly better image because the gallium asenide is much more responsive to that longer wavelength light. If the tube cant turn the photons into electrons, it cant multiply the luminescence in the scene. Someone had a great graph that showed the photocathode response of gen 1, 2 and 3 to increasing wavelengths of light, were is it!

One final thing, having used gen 1 gen 2 and gen 3 devices at many games, gen 3 really really does outclass gen 2, even with plenty of light, because of other tube parameters, that said i own gen 2 because university is very very expensive

gen 1: I think thats maybe a hill over there or it could be a stump or just a shadow I have no idea
gen 2: thats a hill over there with maybe 3 people on it
gen 3: thats a hill over there with 3 people on it one is picking his nose, the other blinked, and the others leg is twitching

or see thundercactuses version in my quote

what would be the best bang for the buck gen2 nvg? since I dont plan to use it outside at all, Ima try gen2s, maybe i will evantually move up to the gen3s once I start to play outside abit more.

I just saw this nvg ARMASIGHT by FLIR Spark CORE which has Resolution of 60-70 lp/mm, with enough IR lighting available, would that work for a indoor CQB like scenario?

Waste of money. You`ll never get those costs back when you decide to upgrade.

White light is the way to go along with tritium iron sights. If you`re facing a ton of NVG users just white light them.

Its airsoft, your life doesnt depend on the tech, you will have fun with gen 2 and a good ir light, you will also have fun with gen 3. Its like buying a mx-5 miata fun little car, a bmw z4 is a lot better and does the same thing but is much more expensive. I understand the limitations of my gen 2 device, but i dont want another grand and a half in my airsoft gear when im spending 30 000$ a year on school, i have FUN with my gen 2, and occasionly get my ass handed to me ina really dark spot by someone with gen 3

If you can find an insanely cheap enough Armasight Core, yeah. There are some that sold in the 400 range in the past and I would say that is a good "safe" number because you'd be able to get your money back, and for heavy illuminated indoor night time CQB it would be alright I guess

Just do not for the love of god buy one brand new, at retail, plus tax and all the other stuff. Just don't do it.

THIS.

also applies to gen 2 tubes:
at new price points gen 2 tubes in country are the same price as used gen 3 which is far better for the most part

The amount you'll pay for the brand new top end gen2 is actually significantly higher than what you'll pay for high end used gen3. It's kinda fucked up lol

What ThunderCactus said. When I was building my NOD's I considered buying a brand new European gen 2+ commercial tube. For me to buy a brand new comm spec tube would have cost me as much or more than what I paid in total for my whole device, and the tube I got was 10x better than any comm spec gen 2+ tube.

High end Gen 2 bashing needs to stop, period, because with the 4G shit Photonis has shown that it's clearly not as cut and dry as people make it out to be... And even before that different areas of the world actually served different tubes better because of weird atmospheric memes and what not.

And this idea of buying a BNIB Gen 2 with paperwork from a local business vs buying a used Gen 3 with no idea of history, where it came from etc... Is just silly. Apply this line of thinking to cars - I could go to the dealership and buy a brand new Honda, or I could buy a used BMW, with no paperwork or whatever or knowing exactly where it came from, for a little less than the brand new Honda - and you see this is kind of a silly statement to make.

The lack of honest discussion in this thread genuinely bothers me.

Why not compare apples to apples instead of apples to oranges?

Gen 2+ is more expensive, BUT it's brand new and obtained through the proper channels. Your gen 3 (read: American-made) tubes are either acquired through questionable means or just someone else's dirty laundry.

Apples to Apples: If you somehow have access to the channels through which to acquire NEW Gen 3 here in Canada, the numbers I've seen suggest it is AS EXPENSIVE, or MORE expensive than your Gen 2+ European tubes.

I'm just getting into the NVG game, and have been pretty hesitant to drop 4k on a "Selling-for-a-friend" tube, when I can get 90% of the performance out of something brand-new for LESS than 4k.

Where are you finding 4G equipped units for less than $4000CAD? Wouldn't mind getting one myself when it's time to replace my omni 6 tube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pyd-LXPTUg

If you're buying NEW, yeah the gen2 is way better than what we can get for gen3 in Canada. But why buy new when you can get used gen3 that performs even better than the brand new gen3 available or brand new gen2 from europe for much less?
It's not like you're buying a crapshoot, the tubes are labelled.

The difference, depending on the unit, isn't always THAT drastic since they are more than usable the vast majority of the time... and ultimately it's the same reason I might pay a little more going to Best Buy getting a somewhat worse TV than buying a flatscreen out of the back of a guys truck in an alleyway.

This is coming from someone that does advocate people buy the used Gen 3's on the classifieds - they are usually a good deal - but to act like it's an open and shut case through and through is dishonest at best.

OP asked whats best on a budget >5000euro new photonis tube or <4000CAD gen 3, obviously on a tight budget used gen 2 is even cheaper, but between the 2 best options, used gen 3 is much more budget friendly

And a used or new $1200-1600 gen2 tube is going to be best fit for use.
Just like gen3 is overkill, a $4000 top end gen2 tube is WAAAAAY above what you need in a well IR illuminated cqb environment.

Don't buy anything. DARPA is working on NVG contact lenses. Hold out for the good stuff.

And as Anthony said above, compare apples to apples. You seem to be unwilling to admit there are different circumstances that drive these prices and you need to factor it into your purchase decision (ie risk inherent to used gen 3 such as lack of history, no warranty, etc)

These are important factors as well that inform whether or not a price is a good deal. Some people may hold different opinions than you in this regard.

The most common problem so far has been inaccurate descriptions of what tube is in the unit. I'm sure you'd know better than I would, but how often does someone get royally fucked on a gen3 deal on ASC?
Not to say it can't happen, but chances are pretty darn low thus far... Warranty is nice, but what's the lowest price you'd seen on a photonis 4G unit with autogating so far?

I think we can both agree this is WAY off topic from the original post lol

Um without going into details I know a few times it has happened - once even to me and possibly even one a few months back, so, yeah. I'm not going to say it's a widespread issue but it's an inherent risk that comes with the territory. So saying the Gen 3 hands down, 100% of the time, is always the better deal is a little bit dangerous.

Oh, sure, this is one of the few times I'm not directly trying to call you out in particular since the info you have seems to be good, I have far more issue with the info Ben is saying because it seems like if some guy managed to find some cheapo gen 2's at a bargain OP would be 100% happy

I also suggested he'd probably be happy with the Spark if he could get it low enough, given what he wants to use it for

I'm just of the opinion the Gen 2 bashing in general needs to stop, and I think c3sk's comment is by far one of the best in the thread as it summarizes why;// A very good friend of mine runs a pair of extremely early omni 3/4 "beater" night vision tubes for his Bino set, and he absolutely slays in Airsoft against folk with ridiculously high spec tubes.

That is true and Ill agree with you, Op has though stated a budget of <3000$ which rules out both of our options, so our bickering is pointless, and as thundercactus has mentioned, waaaaaaaaay off topic.

As such ill reiterate my opinion of useful information for OP:

1) AABB pvs-14 thingy from an airsoftstore
pros:
-cheap
-works on the same principle as the ir cameras
cons:
-not a real night visiony feel, as it isnt really night vision, it could be considered digital night vision at best
-unusable outdoors if you choose to do that
-may be very crap, ive only looked through one breifly

2) used gen 2
pros:
-cheapish compared to used gen 3 and new top end photonis gen 2 (1200-2000$)
-is useable outdoors with minimal supplementary ir light (might need an ir light to see into dark shadows or to give you some brightness to make out objects on occasion on really dark nights)
-can be found in canada with relitive ease, and there is the option to buy new low/mid end gen 2 in country for around the 2500$ mark (GSCI gs-14)
cons:
-low photocathode sensitivity (darker image on moonless nights/cloud cover)
-lets be honest 2000$ for something you use for 20 minutes a month or 3 of 4 times a year is a ton of money

those are what i would consider, having owned gen 1 for 2 years I wouldnt bother with it even though it may work alright with the supplementary IR light, the AABB thingy is a bit narrow minded and I think it would only be adaquate in your exact situation, it isnt a very diverse piece of kit. the gen 2 can do a lot more things but costs significantly more.

"I have far more issue with the info Ben is saying because it seems like if some guy managed to find some cheapo gen 2's at a bargain OP would be 100% happy"

why wouldnt he be? hes playing in an indoor environment with supplementary IR, as much as everyone seems to write off low/mid end gen 2, it does produce a usable, albeit sometimes dark image, in most situations you find yourself in airsoft. Dont get me wrong, id LOVE to have gen 3, and im by no means saying that gen 2 is the best you can get for airsoft purposes, because clearly it isnt. What I am trying to get across is that you can have an enjoyable night vision experience at an airsoft game, using a lower end generation 2 tube, you dont have to drop that extra grand and a half to be satisfied if your willing to use an ir light to peer into corners or to id targets or clarify an object that is in a dim image, and for some people saving an extra 1500$ is well worth having to shine an ir light every so often, and its not like it totaly ruins your tactical advantage, there is a very good chance that someone with gen 3 has already detected you, and more then likly gen 1 doesnt have enough photocathode sensitivity to even pick up your ir light if you buy the right one.

Well OP is playing CQB in a well IR illuminated CQB environment. Beyond having a tube that has reasonable sensitivity to IR, the price you're spending for better equipment is a pretty steep curve for not a whole heck of amazing gain.
I mean if you're shelling out the cash for brand new top end photonis 4G, or omni 3/4 comparable gen3, then you'd almost certainly be better off saving money and buying cheap thermal for CQB lol
In the 40-60ft range, you're still going to potentially run into shadowed areas that even gen3 has trouble seeing into. So you can use IR light, which will give you away, or use cheap thermal so see right into it. You might be able to ID targets by gear in the leupold LTO at that range, but somehow I doubt a torrey pines could tell a dog apart from a pair of children standing together closely at that range.

I've got a photonis comm spec tube myself, and despite being crap compared to an XR5, and even noticeably less good than a supergen, I'd still headmount it for CQB.
You can get a night optics ambia gen 2 (which may actually be something lower tier than photonis comm spec, not sure what they use anymore) for about $1300 CAD. Which is an amazing entry price into gen 2 considering how crap our dollar is right now, AND it'll do everything OP needs it to do, plus warranty.
Biggest issues are going to be fishbowl (almost unavoidable at that price), low resolution (no so bad when you're only dealing within 75ft), and noise (only a real problem in low light, not brightly IR lit areas).

I really think low to mid range gen2 is what's called for here; in the $1200-$2000 range. But what would you recommend, specifically?

I think you hit it on the head with the Ambia. If he can get that low grade Gen 2 within the 1500 and under price range (assuming new, taxes in, etc) this is ideal. Should do most of what he needs it to do, retains resale value, etc.

I've never used an Armasight Spark before in any real situation - looked through one briefly, but I imagine in a CQB arena with IR flooded CCTV systems, it might be good enough as well. This and a good IR Surefire and you are laughing. If he can get one of those Sparks sub 500 dollars, I'd say it might be a good starting point as well. He can sell it in and around that price to get his money back out of it when he goes to sell it.

I would say these are the two best options before you start going down the three thousand dollar NVG Rabbit Hole.

wow, thanks guys, I really appreciate your inputs, i just gotta find a cheap spark or ambia now, any directions for me to start?

The version night optics made before the ambia is called the D300, they made an MS version which is the same price as the ambia and they made an SHP (super high preformance) version that goes for around 2000$ on these forums, both kinds of those D300s show up on occasion on the forums so keep your eyes out there, as far as new just keep your eyes peeled on various websites, ive seen them occasionally both the D300s and ambia on amazon.ca, the spark I saw on scoutbasecamp.ca for around 500$, and ive seen used ones go for around 300-400$ on this forum and on the facebook groups

Time for my 2 cents.

Buy the products that fits your use case for best results.

I wouldn't bother with I2 style NVG setups for those conditions. You can home brew a digital night vision unit from a camcorder for ~300-500 dollars and will serve you as well since:

1) you are indoors and the place is filled with IR light sources
2) it's far cheaper and you're not going to really use it in any meaningful way,
3) its easily disposable and if gets shot out Who cares.

I think Ben suggested it above somewhere. If you like what you are getting and want to start using NV outdoors you'll want to consider replacing that with someone completely different. unless you are on a well lit paintball field at night.

Usage / budget drives what you should be considering to purchase. If you are taking night sky photography through a high power telescope a 'tactical' grade tube is not necessarily ideal.