Is it Illegal for a Minor to POSSESS an Airsoft Gun in Canada?
 

Someone please educate me as to exactly what laws are being broken when a minor owns an airsoft gun.

Please cite the location of the specific codes as written in the Canadian Criminal Code, because I've personally never heard of such a thing before.

I want to get this cleared up right here and now so that the constant reports about "minors breaking the law" either stop or get enforced properly. Mind you, it's generally the same guys who complain about minors "breaking the law", performing "illegal activities", and "promoting illegal behaviour" but I have yet seen a single shred of proof or cited material to prove these claims. This clarification needs to be made.

For you guys who always complain about this issue, state your case, provide your claim and cite the specific areas as outlined by the Canadian Criminal Code. If you can back it up, then I'll enforce the claims more strongly, but until then, any more such complaints will yield the COMPLAINER with an infraction for wasting the time of moderators.

It isn't anywhere. People just think it is, because of Ontario bylaws or some crap.

*Giggles. (This may be my day.)

I was going to say you only need to be 18+ to buy Airsoft. On some boxes of ClearSoft, 16+ depending area location.
But people on here think you need to be 18+ because in order to play you need to be 18+ and to have one.

My understanding of the law is simple and as follows:

It is illegal for a minor under the age of 18 years of age to PURCHASE an airsoft gun in the province of Ontario. I'm under the impression that no other province has such a law.

I'm also under the impression that there is NO provincial or federal law that states that it is illegal for a minor to POSSESS an airsoft gun. PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG ON THIS MATTER, because frankly, I'm getting pretty tired of some users claiming this is the case without any proof. It's false information.

Ive never read of any such law but personally I just go by the, you should be 18 because 18 is the age that a person is considered an adult, and therefore responsible for their own actions, aside from that, I cannot offer much more.

Did I smoke before I was 18? Yep
Did I drink before I was 19?(19 in sask to drink) Hell yes
Did I attempt anal sex before I was 18? You better fucking believe it.
(on that last one, people should look into it, the legal age for anal sex is actually 18)

Of course people who are underage are gona try and do things they want to, if they are allowed or if they are not.
The best we can do is attempt to educate them, and attempt to weed out the stupid and make sure they understand what they are doing, you dont just get in the car and drive before your 16 (unless you grew up in sask and lived on a farm that is), you had to to wait till you were legally allowed to drive and have had enough practive, but in regards to airsoft, there is no law that I know of that states that you have to be 18 here in sask, its only a well practised rule that we use.

I believe the 18 thing is just so that the person with the airsoft gun can be held responsible instead of the blame falling on a parent or guardian, but I believe that is also what juvy is for.

I was under the impression that 18+ to purchase, but in the act of possession, it is 16+. This being, in worst case scenario, you can be given a more major sentence should a crime be involved.

This is not a Federal issue, Brian, but a rather a Provincial issue. Not all provinces have this on the books, but most do, somewhere. I've found the best resource for such info in Alberta has been via the Fish and Wildlife branch of the provincial government. They regulate hunting activities, and lay out regulations for minors who hunt, use weapons, which weapons can be used when for hunting, etc.

But, the Federal law is vague on the EXACT placement of airsoft or other airguns that aren't directly regulated by the CCC as far as possesion and use legislation is concerned. It would be reasonable to assume that if you had to go to court, an airsoft gun would be treated as any other weapon when used in the commision of a crime (and it is so noted in the CCC), but the question is determining the crime. Many municipalities forbid even the possession of airguns within city limits, while others don't, but will prohibit their discharge.

It's a complicated issue, and varies from province to province and municipality to municipality. It's best if you try to find out all local ordinances yourself, but how many 15-18 year olds are going to do that? I like the idea of promoting an "18+ because it's the law" policy as a failsafe to ensure that no matter where you are, you should still be legal. It's not the most technically legal stance, but it serves a purpose to the community at large that outweighs it legal weight for accuracy.

It's one thing to educate, it's another to use scare tactics through false information. That's my issue with the issue.

Even if it's not federal, provide me with the provincial by-law that states it is illegal for possession.

Until there's hard proof of it, there's not much that ASC can do besides EDUCATING the minor. As much as some of you guys want, I CAN'T just slap a minor across the back of the head just because he says he's going to get a gun one way or another.

Plus, there's always the possibility that some 15 or 16 year old kid will take it to school to show his friends. Then if he points it at someone or flashes it to his friends and has it taken away he may squeal. The cops might then come beat down your door and inquire as to why you are selling firearm replicas?

I'm not saying to slap anyone over it. It's not our problem if they do. If they buy from a retailer, that's the retailer's problem. If they buy from the back-door of ASC, they should be punted from here. This is after all still a private community, and as such can make up whatever rules it wants.

Maybe when Greylocks speaks out about "18+", he's speaking from a provincial or local standpoint. Unless we want to list the laws of all 10 provinces + the territories, as well as thousands of towns and cities, I don't see how getting a definitive answer on what the law truly is for "X" person living in "Y" city in "Z" province is going to be of any benefit to anyone.

complicated
 

here is the issue...

It is not legal for a person under the age of 18 to posses a replica firearm.
They are proscribed under the CCC as prohibited devices..

but... Airsoft guns as a class of articles are not proscribed as replicas...although practically every one that has ever been tested by a court has met the criteria to be classed as a replica.

such tests only happen when charges are laid.

So If airsoft are replicas..they are proscribed and Governed by the CCC and the provisions of the Firearms Act... which limits possession of firearms to persons 18 years and older, without supervision. even though they are not firearms .. replicas are proscribed so the same age restrictions apply


So technically if a minor committed an offense with an airsoft gun.. and was charged... they would also likely face a charge of unlawful possession of a prohibited device...as well.

so the same "loop hole" that people are buying and selling airsoft guns through .. applies to possession by minors...

it is not any more illegal for a minor to have one than it is for you to sell one to someone else.

Exactly what I wanted to say(well, not EXACTLY) except I was too lazy.

I was wondering this..
I know for paintball you need to be 18 to buy a marker, but you see lotsa little kids running around with them.
But, basicly what Brian said, makes sense.
*shrug* :?

So if you're a minor and want to play airsoft then you should buy a buttload of grenades and play only with grenades?

AWESOME!

Plug for Airsoft Innovations grenade? Lol. How is that coming BTW.

Section/subsection number and a quote please.

They are on CFC website here

Again need a link/quote.

According to this, Section 91(2) under Possession Offenses, there is an 'except replica firearm' bit.

If I read the Criminal Code correctly, possession of a replica firearm is not illegal, however transportation or fiddling with one, is.

edit: CFC website (link above) also mentions Minor's Possession License, additionally, it mentions that no license is required to possess a Replica Firearm.

Here's what I got from Crossman.

This is for softair/airsoft
http://www.crosman.com/2004/img/cata...gs/softair.gif


This is for Airgun. (Only supervision is needed when using an "Airgun"(4.5 or pellet). )
http://www.crosman.com/2004/img/cata...rnings/gun.gif

exactly read that "buyer and users duty to obey all laws about use and ownership" it states nothing about the law. that image is just a warning thats all. they are talking about laws.

From the Firearms Act:

Special Cases — Persons
Minors

8. (1) An individual who is less than eighteen years old and who is otherwise eligible to hold a licence is not eligible to hold a licence except as provided in this section.

Minors hunting as a way of life

(2) An individual who is less than eighteen years old and who hunts or traps as a way of life is eligible to hold a licence if the individual needs to hunt or trap in order to sustain himself or herself or his or her family.
Hunting, etc.

(3) An individual who is twelve years old or older but less than eighteen years old is eligible to hold a licence authorizing the individual to possess, in accordance with the conditions attached to the licence, a firearm for the purpose of target practice, hunting or instruction in the use of firearms or for the purpose of taking part in an organized competition.
No prohibited or restricted firearms

(4) An individual who is less than eighteen years old is not eligible to hold a licence authorizing the individual to possess prohibited firearms or restricted firearms or to acquire firearms or cross-bows.
Consent of parent or guardian

(5) An individual who is less than eighteen years old is eligible to hold a licence only if a parent or person who has custody of the individual has consented, in writing or in any other manner that is satisfactory to the chief firearms officer, to the issuance of the licence.




AUTHORIZED TRANSFERS AND LENDING
General Provisions
Definition of “transfer”

21. For the purposes of sections 22 to 32, "transfer" means sell, barter or give.

1995, c. 39, s. 23; 2003, c. 8, s. 17.

Authorization to transfer prohibited weapons, devices and ammunition

24. (1) Subject to section 26, a person may transfer a prohibited weapon, prohibited device or prohibited ammunition only to a business.

Conditions

(2) A person may transfer a prohibited weapon, prohibited device, ammunition or prohibited ammunition to a business only if
(a) the business holds a licence authorizing the business to acquire and possess prohibited weapons, prohibited devices, ammunition or prohibited ammunition, as the case may be;


From the CFC Fact Sheet for Airguns:

Such air guns are exempt from licensing, registration, and other requirements under the Firearms Act, and from penalties set out in the Criminal Code for possessing a firearm without a valid licence or registration certificate. However, they are considered to be firearms under the Criminal Code if they are used to commit a crime. Anyone who uses such an air gun to commit a crime faces the same penalties as someone who uses a regular firearm.

The simple possession, acquisition and use of these air guns for lawful purposes is regulated more by provincial and municipal laws and by-laws than by federal law. For example, some provinces may have set a minimum age for acquiring such an air gun. For more information, please contact your local or provincial authorities.



It's a little vague, but basically they defer determination to the provinces, but clearly forbid prohibited and restricted firearms from minors with no exceptions. They do have exceptions to the 18+ policy for PAL, but under prescribed conditions. Minors using airsoft guns is not one of them.

EDIT: Nevermind, was disagreeing with what I agreed with, pertaining to what mcguyver said. And kuchervano, it says airsoft guns MAY be classified as airsoft guns. Which we all know means jack shit. CARRY ON.

I have emailed them. I just searched at that a while ago. So if I get an email back from them saying minors using airsoft guns is not one of them, then the rules of age to play is crossed out?

lolwut?

The rules of age to play has nothing to do with this conversation. That's game host rules.

Whoops. Just got that now.

replica guns ie: airsoft guns are not illegal to own.They are how ever not to be displayed in public view/they will be seized...and you will not get them back,,,,end of story (works for any fire arm (air gun/paintball bla bla)
They are illegal to import into canada (replica) and
you are not suppose to ship with canada post (everyone does)
i asked the person who does all my shipping and she handed me a fact sheet on it

I'm am very happy to see this thread, I was so sick of people not wanting to help me or give me answers because they thought I was breaking some law owning my gun, (and I wish i could contribute to this argument).

mustang,
Canada post not allowing was just a couple weeks ago. To my knowledge they ARE enforcing it. Your best to spend the 15-20 bucks more and get it purolator or UPS

Baseball bats and golf clubs :)

Or just go full out and hide some crack and Ice in the gun! its not like the things gonna get Seized!

they dont seize them they just hand em over to the police and they deal with them

^thats what i mean, they would seize it and give to the cops so they can charge you then go melt it into popcans

or keep em and go play airsoft hahahhahahaha

That happened to a guy shipping from Vancouver to PG last year. For some reason it was turned over to the RCMP. He contacted the officer and the pistol was returned to him.

The last court cases (in Ontario) were for the store at Pacific Mall that got accused.

The legal ruling, which was crossposted here and may still be somewhere, considered Airsoft as Replica guns. This means that unless something better comes along, or that court ruling gets overturned, airsoft = replicas in Court.

So, based on that Court decision, the only thing we can use are the laws relating to Replicas and they are fairly clear. You cant buy one if you are under 18, and you also cant own one if you are under 18. (Having the right to buy it, or acquire it, means you have the right to own it. If buying / acquiring requires 18 with no further restrictions like permits, then the same applies to owning since you must do one before being able to do the second).

You can use one IF under the direct supervision of the legal owner, and IF the place you use them is also authorized for such (and allows minors, but that's a field by field decision with some provincial rules and bylaws thrown in).

That's how it stands, and I can also stand corrected if there was a new court ruling to overturn that decision. Until then, that's what I personally stick by.

Well, I'm glad ILLusion forced the issue, I've just been going along with the whole 18+ thing even though I knew there was no legal basis for it outside of Ontario. Does that make me a bad person? Beats me, I was just highly uncomfortable with the idea of kids that go to pieces just on internet forums freely buying replica firearms.

This is why I was so keen on the idea of a Canada-wide bylaw or law on imitation firearm in that last "Hey Let's Do Something XXXXXXIV: The Search for Anything and Everything" thread. I don't think most kids should be able to freely buy airguns and paintball markers, either. They'll put their (or worse, someone else's) eye out. And they have.

Anyways, so now what? Do we go back to business as usual, or do we actually reflect this in our posts?

As long as Mark and Ken don't sell to anyone under 18 and the age verification system is in place for the classifieds there really isn't much we can do to prevent smuggling or private exchange. The vast majority of public game hosts require 18+ anyway so really nothing has changed.

So the conclusion is "No, it's not illegal for someone under 18 to own an airsoft gun."

EDIT: And I didn't mention buying it.

But the new question is ? are minors still allowed to paticipate and purchase airsoft here ?

Well, the community can set its own rules above and beyond what the law is.

No, not exactly.

It is not illegal for someone under 18 to buy imitation firearm outside of Ontario.

It is not illegal to sell imitation firearm to someone under 18 outside of Ontario.

It is not illegal for someone under 18 to buy imitation firearm inside of Ontario.

It is illegal to sell imitation firearm to someone under 18 inside of Ontario.

It is illegal to acquire, transfer and/or destroy replica firearms without the proper permits and/or notification of firearm enforcement officers, regardless of age.

It is not illegal to own imitation firearm and replica firearm, regardless of age.

So..outside of Ontario, with regards to owning replicas, it's pretty much everyone gets them, or no one gets them. That means it could be seen as everyone breaking the law, or no one breaking the law.

No. Outside of Ontario, it's up to the laws of a different province. Not everything in Canada revolves around Ontario.

As for what mcguyver got

From the CFC Fact Sheet for Airguns:

Such air guns are exempt from licensing, registration, and other requirements under the Firearms Act, and from penalties set out in the Criminal Code for possessing a firearm without a valid licence or registration certificate. However, they are considered to be firearms under the Criminal Code if they are used to commit a crime. Anyone who uses such an air gun to commit a crime faces the same penalties as someone who uses a regular firearm.

The simple possession, acquisition and use of these air guns for lawful purposes is regulated more by provincial and municipal laws and by-laws than by federal law. For example, some provinces may have set a minimum age for acquiring such an air gun. For more information, please contact your local or provincial authorities.


Just because you need to be 18 and over to buy an airsoft, it doesn't say in the sheet you need to be a certain age to possess one. Why are you guys trying to make your own rule saying you can't.
IMO, I think the reason why they didn't put the age down is because they would probably have to go through each and every province?

Depends. If you follow the Court ruling (which has power behind it), you will put 2+2 together.

Airsoft = Replica.
Replica = Prohibited Device.

Requirement to have in your possession OR buy a Prohibited device is to be 18+, buy it, own it, and only let it be used under your direct supervision.

If you are under 18, you cannot own a Prohibited Device last I checked. This may have changed but I doubt it. Someone here would have noticed.

You CAN use one IF the owner is right there supervising you and IF the place where it's being used allows people under 18 (that's an insurance matter for the field owner). That applies to any Prohibited Device.

I wish they would make it clear that this is the way Airsoft are seen, but for now, as said, I'll follow what the Court ruled. Unless I misread it, Airsoft are also classified as Prohibited devices by Customs, so that pretty much nails it down if you put everything together.

Laws regarding airguns (many of which are quoted) dont apply to airsoft.

Please share with us where you checked that.


2Styrak - I'm still lolwut'ing over here.

Also the Pacific Mall incident. The article never showed up.

Prior to Jan 1/98, possession and aquisition for replicas was legal. After this date, possession was legal (only if you owned prior to Jan 1/98) and aquisition became illegal. Now, in 2008 both are illegal. Possession and aquisition are the same when you are talking about buying a gun, or possessing a gun now, illegal.

If you, a minor, does not understand the difference between possession and aquisition of a prohibited device now, today, then you have no business doing either. Sorry, but it's a fact of life.

I will have this answer for you directly next week as related to British Columbia. I have posed this question to the Inspector in Charge of the Firearms Division of the Vancouver Police Department as I work very closely with them in my employment. I am awaiting his reply, as I am currently researching the rules and regulations and requirements for importing and selling airsoft through a walkin store here in Vancouver. Will keep you advised.

Last time I checked, possession was still legal, unless they amended the Criminal Code within the last month. This is still rather important, as it's considerably more involved a process to prove acquisition (proving we got it before '98, as it were) than it is possession (oh look, you have it). And the more resources it takes/wastes to prosecute us, the less inclined the police are to suddenly have a paradigm shift about our replicas.

Plus when the sky falls (:rolleyes:) we'll all be charged with one less offence.

The onus is upon the accused to prove their date of possession. If you can't prove you bought it prior to Jan 1/98, then you are in violation of the law. Likely 99% of ASC members fall into this category. Not many people have owned a gun for more than 10 years, and even less can prove it.

You can't illegally acquire a prohibited device, but still be legal in possessing it.

They only need to prosecute a handful of people to get their message across. How many people here would turn in their guns if a Justice official came on here and said they have successfully prosecuted a few people and will do more, or turn in your guns? It happened with real guns to force compliance for registration.

According to the law, you can. As you've said, acquisition and possession aren't the same thing. People can't be charged with possession offence of replica firearm because that offence does not exist, but 99% of us can be charged with transfer offences because they do exist.

Semantics? Maybe to us, but I'd prefer the contradiction to stick around and hope a good lawyer can make something of it someday.

If you follow the model I posted, there is no contradiction at all.

Airsoft = Replica = Prohibited Device.

Where can you check all that? Dept of Justice and the CCRA.

It's on record that airsoft are treated as replicas, more than once. Even in this thread by others than me.
It's on record that replica firearms are prohibited.
Prohibited Devices cannot be obtained (anymore) if you follow that logic, and certainly not by non-adults.

If you are over 18, and already have a Replica, no real problem. You bought it, it's in your possession, you own it. What you do with it requires some common-sense.
You can even loan it to another person if you are present to supervise. Almost like the regulations for real handguns.

However the logic and follow-through is lacking, and can be interpreted as being a Provincial matter. BUT... the regulations about Replicas and Prohibited devices are Federal: They apply across Canada.

As to what happened at Pacific Mall, I'm sure the Mods are far more capable for tracking it down. Or was it that case where a guy was arrested and then was shown to have a lot of airsoft he used? Either one, they got charged and convicted.

I dont feel like arguing this in a Court of Law, so I'll still follow what I think applies and err on the side of caution (or the side of what was last posted on Federal websites).

It is illegal to both now, and has been for 10 years. It's not a matter of semantics, but a matter of law.

Replica firearm is explicity excluded from the category of prohibited device for all Criminal Code paragraphs involving non-trafficking possession offence, has been for 10 years now.

Mr Greylocks, while your arguments are well versed and do make sense, the word 'logic' can not be used to back up what you are saying, at least not in Supreme Overlord Moderator Illusion's All-seeing Eyes.. I looked high and low and did not find any mention of age requirment in federal regulations that pertain to this discussion.
From mcguyver's reply here it follows that any one who acquired a replica firearm after 1998 can be charged under the Criminal Code. As such, age has no impact on legality (or in this case, illegality) of acquiring a prohibited device. It will have an impact on the outcome of the trial, when it comes to that.

In reading this entire thread and others which I have participated in, I think that the only true way of knowing the answers to these questions is to obtain a legal opinion from a practicing attorney. This is the only sure way of knowing as we can only interpret the laws to the best of our untrained legal abilities. So gentlemen, does anyone know a practicing attorney that can give us a legal opinion?????

Lawdog is a lawyer. As well, quite a few of us have spoken to lawyers on the subject of replica firearm. Don't know who has actually talked about possession by minors, though. Very few lawyers would be able to reliably comment on the subject anyways, it's rather off the beaten path.

Finally, as people have said, there is no law against possession of replica regardless of age, while unauthorized acquisition and transfer is illegal regardless of age. You don't need to consult a lawyer to know what laws exist and doesn't, you can look it up yourself.

No you do not need to be a lawyer to know what laws exist, however in my profession and being in court on a regular basis, as a professional expert witness, laws can only be interpreted by trained professionals. Perhaps other than lawdog, none of us are that.

While you're on the right track, attorneys interpret the law, and their interpretations are generally what people go to court for. I think a well written email or snail mail to the government department directly involved in the legal aspects of the original question would be more fruitful. However, they've been hesitant to offer anything concrete regarding airsoft in the past.
Also, talking to a store owner who got raided might be another idea, to see what charges were filed in relation to the seizures. I visited Matty at Warcraft Games over the Christmas holidays, but he was not able to talk about the ongoing investigation.

On an unrelated side note, a friend of mine who is a CBSA agent working in the Vancouver Mail Office has told me that they have started to not allow airsoft upper receivers as well as lowers through the mail. They also now send back paintball guns that are obvious replicas of actual firearms, such as some of the Tippman BT4 series, which I find rather odd.

Do you mean not obvious replicas? Because the BT4 is a rather poor imitation of an AR or AK, if it ever decides which one it wants to be. If they're turning back BT4s at the border, it's indicative of an alarming lowering of custom's standard on what constitutes a replica firearm.

That's my biggest concern with the current law, the completely arbitrary judgement on aesthetic qualities. If CBSA can move to prohibit importation of things like BT4, they can probably prohibit just about any thing vaguely L-shaped eventually.

Nope. He mentioned the AR and AK variants of the BT4 line. I guess they're using "soccer mom" quality control.
What really sucks is he's an airsofter, and he has to send all this stuff back.

Read it again, from the CFC Fact Sheet for replicas:

Possessing or Acquiring Replica Firearms
As an individual, you may keep any replicas that you owned on December 1, 1998. You do not need a licence to possess a replica firearm and it does not have to be registered. However, you cannot acquire, make or import a replica firearm. If you take a replica firearm out of Canada, you cannot bring it back in.

If you are a business, you may possess, acquire or import replica firearms only if you have a valid Firearms Business Licence that allows you to possess prohibited device for an approved purpose.



This is pretty clear cut. Not really open to interpretation, unless you are arguing whether a gun is a replica or not. Good luck with that.

The CFC only has power to administer the Firearms Act, specifically the paperwork end. The Fact Sheets are based on their interpretation, which they're free to make, but their legal basis is dubious at best.

I've just seen several posts covering the confusion. That's the problem; confusion.

I can interpret what I read one way, or even several ways. What I heard interpreted the most was that airsoft were replicas, and then that replicas were considered prohibited by certain branches of the government.

So, since the day one of us winds up in a court may happen, and the entire thing wont be fun, I interpret using the worst case scenario. So I base my comments on what relates to prohibited devices. Those I'm sure you cant buy or possess unless you are over 18.
That too can be interpreted.

Some of you see it differently. Nobody can really tell who is right, and that is a problem I wish was finally resolved by the government In Writing.

A court ruling works for me, it's the only legal comment I ever heard that was written down. Now I wish I could find the damned thing or remember the thread.

Agreed.

Now, as for the general guidelines of this community, I suggest that it is perhaps time that the admins setup some guidelines to clear the confusion strictly pertaining to the ASC website. For example, 18+ only to be able to post on this site. This would follow in line with 18+ being able to play at sanctioned games. New users to this site should perhaps be restricted to the FAQs for the first "while" and the reading of the FAQs should be a prerequisite to full privledges on this site.

Obviously even those that have been members of this community for a long period of time cannot give an accurate answer as to the questions at hand. So, lets not give out inaccurate information but perhaps curtail that information to those that are of age to use this site.

My thoughts only.....

If we had to be 18 to post, when signing an account, you need to put a birthdate. Someone can just list and put a legal age of year. If that doesn't work, you guys would say oh, meet up with one of our members that are age verfiers. I've seen some guys that have airsoft, legal of age, trying to get verified but most of the time, they are not in the location age verifiers are in.

But if you go with that line of thinking would it not mean any airsoft gun bought after dec.98 is illegal. if you are ready to call them all replicas right now then it would. Is one court case enough to set a precedent? I don't know and if it is then it would look like the goverment is seeing them all as replicas. -18 would not matter because if it was bought after dec.98 it's illegal for anyone. If you say they are replicas but continue to buy you are admitting to and encouraging illegal activity? I am just thinking aloud right now I support the +18 for playing and owning not because I think it is a law but because it simplifies any legal issues if they should come up no dealing with mommy.

It seems to me that there are a numer of questions that must be systematically adressed to really understand this issue.

-Are airsoft guns classified as replicas? If so federally or provincially?
-Does case law exist that has set precident in an airsoft case? Did the precident deal with aisoft specifically or the use of airsoft to perpetrate a crime, or with large scale distribution and importation? Do the police know and understnad the law?
-What bearing does age have on these laws?
-Can airsoft be grandfathered?

These are a few of the questions I could think of, and as you can see it's hard to answer the third question without adressing the first two. While I agree that a professosional lawer could shed light on the subject it would simply be thier personal interpreation of a set of rough regulations that hopscotch thier way around the true issue.

As I understand airsoft was designed in Japan to fit through a loophole in thier firearms control act, aparently it does the same thing except our hole is square and airsoft is round.

Pretty ironic considering you aren't age verified and you are posting on this site.

Many airsoft players in Canada are under age 18, and some fields/arenas allow players 16+ to play. Shouldn't the 16 year old player who plays with a club be able to post on internet airsoft forums. Sure I agree 18+ classifieds are a good idea, but after working for an indoor airsoft arena there are many players aged 16-18 who are old enough to play, and should be allowed to post on these forums.

True, I am not age verified. However, having said that, if age verification is a prerequisite to using this site, then I will hop in my vehicle, take a drive to New Westminster here in the lower mainland, see Colin and have him verify me. To date I have not done that because I do not have a need to.

As for the above statement, what I am saying is that perhaps ASC should be self governing until such time as any irregularities/inconsistancies in the legal system with regards to airsoft are cleared up.

The definition of replica firearm fits airsoft to a T. It'd be extraordinarily difficult to argue airsoft as anything else.

It is considered a firearms matter, so federally. Incidentally, replica firearms are not and cannot be firearms by definition.

Airsoft does not exist as a legal definition within the criminal system, because any abuse of it would be classified as abuse of replica firearm/prohibited device.

Technically? None. Authorization to acquire and transfer prohibited device is basically impossible for individuals to get, what authorization floating around are limited to businesses in the film industry for the most part. Since no one regardless of age can get said non-existent authorization for transfer, age is a non-issue.

In addition, under the Criminal Code, possession of replica firearm is not illegal, period, with no age conditions attached.

No, for something to be grandfathered, a specific clause for it must exist in the Criminal Code. To the best of my knowledge, there is no such clause for prohibited devices or replica firearm. The Fact Sheet from CFC might sound like a grandfather clause, but it's not actually based on one.

What confusion is this? I don't think what we are talking about pertains directly to confusion with this site.

Makes sense.

So this is a bit like the states in the way that Ontario laws are different than Quebec laws, as New York laws are different than Texas laws, correct?

So if i understand everything correctly, the LAW states that if you sale a replica/airsoft gun to someone IN Ontario, he/she MUST be +18.

What about Quebec? Where can i find this information?

Personally i only sell airsoft related stuff to people who are verified or that shows me they are +18.

Search provincial and territorial legislature sites' law section, or databases for all of Canada. Only Ontario has that bylaw, last time I checked.

What Illusion is trying to say is what you guys need to back up what you are saying and to have the proof. As mcguyver got from the Firearms Act, it does not state it. But why does Greylocks story say they are replica firearms which the court has said?
Who knows who's right. All of this is causing confusion. If it's not in the Act, it's legal.

Because that court INTERPRETED the laws. They decided that airsoft guns were replicas because they can, it's a Court.

What they decide then becomes binding on future decisions. That's how the legal system works.

Now, again, another interpretation comes from CBSA and CFC; that Replicas can be seen as Prohibited. If that is the way they see it, almost everyone here is screwed.

Even so, with all that stacking up, you really should wait until you are 18.

Remember that what happens to you depends on the Interpretation an Official makes. That Interpretation will vary greatly wether you are over or under 18.

Who will carry the blame will also vary greatly. I dont want to be near that kind of crap just so a teenager can get a realistic looking gun. Not when being mature enough to wait a year or two is all that's required.

Do you want your ass to depend on an interpretation? I dont.

Originally Posted by Criminal Code 91(2)
Unauthorized possession of prohibited weapon or restricted weapon
(2) Subject to subsection (4) and section 98, every person commits an offence who possesses a prohibited weapon, a restricted weapon, a prohibited device, other than a replica firearm, or any prohibited ammunition, unless the person is the holder of a licence under which the person may possess it.


Originally Posted by Criminal Code 92(2)
Possession of prohibited weapon, device or ammunition knowing its possession is unauthorized
(2) Subject to subsection (4) and section 98, every person commits an offence who possesses a prohibited weapon, a restricted weapon, a prohibited device, other than a replica firearm, or any prohibited ammunition knowing that the person is not the holder of a licence under which the person may possess it.

That is for licensing purposes only. You can license a replica, because they are prohibited.

and would that not make it just as illegal for you and I to own them if they were bought after dec.98 IE. ptw's. if so -18 or +18 still illegal and therefore 18+ should be enforced due to legal issues. -18's can and will endanger their family members and not just themelves at that point.

*shakes his head sadly*

OK SOOO....It is generally agreed by everyone here, that NO ONE has an ABSOLUTE clear definintion as to what the legal age is or is not. SO therefore, would it just not be simple for the ASC admins to institute their own governing rule that you must be 18+. Otherwise, we will continue to go around and around in this argumentative circle until we are blue in the face or until our beloved sport is totally banned because we as a community cannot agree on something as simple as an 18+ rule to govern ourselves with.

The reason we have them at all is the inability or unwillingness of the authorities to have all of our nice guns classified officially as replicas. Some guns might not be, but the vast majority would be. This mood could change at anytime, at the whim of the OIC, and there's little you or I or anyone else is going to do about it. This is why we have lived under a shadow for years, and will continue to do so.

Would my PTWs be cosnidered replicas, perhaps, even likely. The only saving grace is that they are the only electric guns designed and shipped from the manufacturer with the capacity to cause bodily injury and exceeed the 407 fps guideline that the RCMP has used to hammer home the "replica" designation in over a dozen CITT appeals.

I really don't understand why this is so difficult to understand? Are the FAQ's too vague? Are people not reading the thousands of threads on this forum?

if the court say's its illegal then its illegal.

Court rules airsoft = replica, and replica = illegal, so airsoft = illegal.

It's basically crap (regarding the price we get slapped with), but on the good side i don't have to play with kids.

Not sure what you'd mean by that, pargraphs 88-98 is under Possession Offenses.

The raids in the past and difficulty in importing airsoft guns would indicate that the general sentiment by the CBSA, CFC and RCMP is that airsoft guns are prohibited firearm. Where unwillingness exists is for the RCMP to do something about it.

Sorry I'm still unclear.

CO2 Pellet guns that are widely sold fall under the replica umbrella or are they something different entirely.

What is the absolute best ruling/classification that this community is looking for?

Sorry. What I meant was you can't license a replica, because they are prohibited with no exceptions for possession, unlike prohibited firearms with exceptions for grandfathering.

The point that many don't seem to get and are confused by is if they are illegal, how come we have them, the authorities know we have them, yet nothing has been done? When someone gets an answer to this question, it will be too late. Live in the grey zone, where all the fashionable people are.

As long as they do not meet the required muzzle energy/velocity figures to qualify as a real firearm AND closely resembles a real firearm, they are technically replica firearms. They haven't be hit quite as hard by CBSA and such because of an oversight, but that could be changing.

Ruling is not particularly good for us, too easily changed considering how unfriendly the current language is to being interpreted in our favour. Same with classification, airsoft gun fits under replica firearm perfectly, we're better off leaving it there. Best possible thing? "Other than a replica firearm" be amended into CCC 99, 100, 101, 105, 106. Or replica firearm be added to a list excluding certain items as being prohibited devices. Or the definition of prohibited devices has line "(e) a replica firearm" removed. Etc, etc.

Don't be an idiot. There are legions of things you can do that are illegal and are not covered in the Criminal Code of Canada, and its subservient documents, including the Firearms Act.

We are talking about if it is ILLEGAL, not if it is against some rule made by ASC. How could ASC tell people whether or not they can possess an airsoft gun.

it is not really that confusing
 

I'm not going to quote law here... I've done so dozens of times...and this same topics come up again and again, Research some threads on the issue.. or even better READ THE LAW YOURSELF.

Airsoft guns as a class of items have not been defined as replicas... However in every case that I have researched that a charge was laid regarding the use of an airsoft gun in a crime ( and it happens lots ) the airsoft gun was found to meet the test of being a replica.

So its is pretty good policy to presume that items sold on the basis of being 1:1 duplicates of real guns .. are pretty likely to be considered a replica in a court of law.

For import purposes airsoft guns are classed as replicas... and you need special licenses to import them.

So... lets just all agree that airsoft guns are replica firearms..and stop arguing about something that is already decided by the court.


in 1998 replica firearms were proscribed under the Criminal code as "prohibited devices"

Underage possession of firearms is also proscribed... and limited to specific defined circumstances... nowhere in those circumstances does it say that underage people can posses prohibited devices. ( for those who demand quotes... right back at you... please quote where it says that they can.. then at least you will have to read the law to find its not there )

In this case the code is inclusive... stating under what exact circumstances an underage person may posses proscribed items.

If under the supervison of a legal possessor an underage person can have in their possesson any proscribed item. So sure.. kids can have airsoft guns in their possession as long as they are supervised by someone who can legally posses them ( anyone over 18 not under a firearms ban ) So one would presume that a 16 year old borrowing his 20 year old brothers airsoft gun and attending a game with him would be fine under the law.

So effectivlly kids can't own airsoft guns because they are proscribed.. but as long as there is an adult around to supervise them they can use them for approved purposes.


So now lets talk about people over 18...

Law is weird stuff ... it does not always seem logical...

For example... according to the law.. I can't buy a replica firearm today..

But if I have one.. I can legally posses one regardless of when I got it..

but how can this be?

here is how it works..

The ACT of transferring a replica is illegal ... this is illegal behavior.. and subject to penalty of proven. the object of the transfer the replica is not made to be an illegal object by being the subject of Illegal behavior.


The object of the transfer is not in its self illegal... but it is proscribed under the law so that it's status is clear.. That status is as a prohibited device.. that is legal to possess.

Look at it this way... I have a kitchen knife.. that there is no legal restriction to have... I stab my neighbor as a result of an argument... The act of stabbing is clearly an offense.. the knife.. still quite legal to have.

I realize we are talking about if it is illegal. And, we WILL continue to be talking about it because NO ONE has a clear understanding (myself included) of the legalities of issue at hand. We all have our own understanding of interpretations of the written law, that so much is clear. So, while we cannot determine if it is legal or illegal 100%, and again, some say yes, some say no, why does ASC not set its own rules for this community and this community only.

Ok guys let me have it....and yes I have read and reread all statutes and policies over and over....

It's legal to possess only if you possessed it prior to Jan 1/98. The onus is on you to prove that you bought it before this date. That's the kicker. How many people on here who do in fact own one and have done so since before this date still have the receipt to prove it?

You can not acquire (which is possession immediately after ther act of acquisition) one after this date. People seem to think that it's illegal to buy, but if they dodge that bullet, they are in the clear because it's legal once you have it in your hands. Not so at all. It's pretty black letter as I posted above.

But this is all moot until the item in question is 100% proscribed as a prohibited replica. Only a handful of guns have this distinction, one being the Western Arms Beretta M92.

lol...you shake your head, I reached for an advil.

I'd love to see lawdog pop in on this and do a nice little break down of the laws, both provincial and federal.

as for one minor posting in here about well if it's legal for a minor that means it negates the 18+ policy the hosts have. *Thanks to whomever pointed out how very wrong his interpertation was*. The community impossed a do not sell to minors policy. I agree with the policy.

Greylocks, I think what people are asking of you when you refer to cases and the court is a link to documentation that supports what you say.

ok then
 

I already got a legal opinion on this issue...

which is exactly that.. an opinion.. That opinion supported my statements.

The CCC states clearly that it is not an offense to posses replicas..any replica.. it does not mention ANYTHING about when or how you got them..

Therefore... posession of replica firearms is legal... full stop

the act of transfering replicas has been illegal from 1998..performing an illegal act does not make an object Illegal... that is also from the legal opinion.

the policy statements of the CFC are not law..they do not modify the CCC

I got a legal opinion before I "aquired" my first airsoft gun... if I thought for a second that possession was illegal in any way... I would not have any..

Having a criminal code conviction would end my career..

The quality of the legal advice and understanding of how Canadian federal and provincial law works in this thread is utterly deplorable.

There's far too many erroneous statements in everyone's replies to point out one by one, but to answer Illusion's question, "Is it Illegal for a Minor to POSSESS an Airsoft Gun in Canada?" the answer is "no."

I have based this answer on the premise that the hypothetical minor in question resides in Ontario and have also ignored any considerations as to how the minor many have acquired the airsoft gun in question.

Of course, Illusion's question can be answered with a simple yes/no since he's asked a very simple question that gets at a very small subset of law. Many of the points about transfers are quite correct.

In what I read here, The Saint and Brian McIlmoyle are the most accurate in their statements; you can get pretty near the state of law in Canada if you combine parts of their various answers, add a few qualifiers and clarifications and discard some of the minor points that aren't quite right in the way that they've been positioned.

KD

I can totally relate and am in the same situation.....

Ever wonder what it's like to live in a free country?

The laws for pellet guns, however, are very clear. Airsoft are not classified as pellet guns. So the pellet gun laws dont apply.

The only laws I've seen applied refer to Replica or Prohibited Devices, depending on the mood of the officials.

I'm siding with Brian. Read his few recent posts.

No, I have not found that court case that was posted here (I think last year) because I dont remember enough of the title or subject to do a proper Search. I'll return the same question he has: show me where it's written that a minor CAN possess a Replica or Prohibited item without the supervision of the owner when it's obvious that you must be over 18 to acquire one (if we use the Replica definitions).

By the way: Buying, Giving, Trading = Acquiring. It comes in your possession in a permanent manner. Loaning under supervision is not possession.

Doess the CCC arrest you for performing an illegal act? No. The RCMP does. The copy/paste portion of the CFC fact sheet (their published official interpretation) says "NO" to possession and "NO" to acquisition.

If it went to court and you said "Your honor, the law is clear that I can possess it, but I couldn't acquire after 1998" his question is going to be "Well, when did you get it?". If your response is anything after 1998, your goose is cooked. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

My point is, acquisition comes first, possession comes second. You can't possess it if you didn't first acquire it. And there has been a time limit on legal acquisition, irregardless what the CCC specifically says on simple possession only. Our laws get altered by judges all the time, and unfortunately their interpretation can and does trump Parliament if they feel it necessary.

I don't dissagree with you... but the issue is not that I posses it.. as that is legal.. the issue is ... when did I get it.. because if the transfer was after 1998.. then that act ( but not the object of that act ) was illegal.

So on conviction.. I am guilty of illegal transfer of a prohibited device.. and I will likely loose my right to possession as a result of that conviction..

The gun's status does not change.. it is still a replica.. and can still be possesed legally... unfortunalty there is no legal way for it to come into your possession.

So if you interprit the intent of the laws.. they are disigned to limit proliferation of replicas...and the trade in them.. the law is not intended to make everyone who has a replica a criminal.

In the absence of evidence of illegal transfer ( eye witness, Video, or fornesic accounting evidence ) no one would enter a charge of illegal transfer.. even if circumstansial evidence clearly indicates an offense was committed...

In the case of the last big retailer clamp down.. when the national reseller network was taken down.. the RCMP took the trouble to video "trunk sales" of guns from retailer to individuals... even then they only threatened to charge.. and issued cease and desist orders on threats of charges...

right after that the retailers got the hint and many of them stopped trade..and the intent of the law was achieved.

So, what you are saying is that the authorities must prove that the object was acquired after 1998 however they will not persue individual owners to do this but rather go after the retailers?

Has anyone been harassed by the authorities for having a replica in his/her possesion at a game or at any other time?